2013/10/5 Martin WINLOW <[email protected]> > I was afraid someone would ask me that. I have had a look (in > anticipation) in my 'Sent' folder and it is not there any longer. I > suppose its on the EVDL somewhere. > > I did have a quick look at the cost of the Cu and Al content for a US$210 > 160Ah LiFePO4 cell (5.7kg) yesterday and figured that they contributed > about $30 together (Cu $7/kg, Al $2/kg, 5.7kg - 300g (case), leaves 3.6kg > of Cu and 1.8 kg of Al (Al is 1/3 the density of Cu) Obviously there is > weight to all the other components but this is just a rough estimate!). > > The foils are about $5 and $9 per kg. They are battery grade foils not just chunks of solid stuff.
If you count the plastics weight in the CelGuard separator and check the granulate prices you'll see there's a lot of cost in the manufacturing and in the patents. Traditional cell manufacturers are using these components which sets their net price. And as I said earlier the net price without factory investments and labour costs and energy is about $160/kWh. Add those and you'll see why the $1/Ah is tricky. It hink only Winston can go below this pricing without losing money since he makes his equipment in house with the cash in the account. > That leaves a *lot* of room for applying the copper/aluminium coatings (if > that is what they still use these days) plastic case, electrolyte, > separators and hardware, assembly, and logistics - and, of course, some > profit! > > The major cost in the manufacturing comes from the investments to equipment. How to amortize 100M€ investment in reasonable time with 50M€ turnover? While profit margins are 10% at best. -Jukka > MW > > > On 4 Oct 2013, at 19:44, Rush Dougherty wrote: > > > Hi Martin, > > > > Could you repost the math so that we can see it ? > > > > Thanks > > Rush > > www.TucsonEV.com > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf > >> Of Martin WINLOW > >> Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 2:38 AM > >> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > >> Cc: 1Me Met > >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Pack prices likely to plummet, halve the cost > > within > >> 6yrs > >> > >> Hi David, > >> > >> I've done the math (as you US bods say) and posted about the results > here > > on > >> the EVDL before and if you do too then you will see there is a very big > > gap in > >> price between what cells are costing now and the cost of the > constituents. > > Even > >> allowing a reasonable cost attributable to manufacturing etc, there is > > still a big > >> margin for the intellectual property cost to fall as economy of scale > > increases. > >> This alone could easily halve the cost of Li cells from their current > > level. > >> > >> MW > >> On 4 Oct 2013, at 04:18, David Nelson wrote: > >> > >>> Do you really think they will continue to drop in price much? Just > >>> look at the cost of the aluminum and copper. Unless something changes > >>> significantly in the amount of Al and Cu per Ah I don't think prices > >>> will go down much. > >>> > >>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>> Ummm...... my math is a little funny there, you are right. Make that > >>>> $1.40/AH. But, right around $7500 for a 96 volt 180AH pack is > > accurate. > >>>> > >>>> I'm not used to pricing batteries per AH... without knowing the > >>>> voltage, I think it's kind of useless, and I know it's for a 3.2 volt > >>>> cell in this case, but I'm used to thinking per pack voltage, not > >>>> cell voltage, and just using however many cells or batteries > >>>> necessary to achieve that pack voltage. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 10:10 AM, John Lussmyer > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Thu Oct 03 07:06:56 PDT 2013 [email protected] said: > >>>>>> performed per specs, and talk of group buys and all), and now it's > >>>>>> more like $7.5k for an in stock CALB bank, plus BMS of course, > around > >> $0.71/AH. > >>>>> > >>>>> From where? > >>>>> Sure isn't Evolve Electric - nor any other place that I can find. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> Try my Sensible Email package! > >>>>> https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/ > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >>>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >>>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>>> scrubbed... > >>>> URL: > >>>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131003/9 > >>>> 9f3c862/attachment.htm> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >>>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >>>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > >>>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> David D. Nelson > >>> http://evalbum.com/1328 > >>> http://www.levforum.com > >>> > >>> Nokia Lumia 920 Windows Phone 8 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > >>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- > >> No virus found in this message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 2014.0.4142 / Virus Database: 3604/6701 - Release Date: > 09/26/13 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting > > http://www.doteasy.com > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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