Cor, I just looked up the specification on the 77 series II, the manual says it has a 3.2V range. In the 3.200V range accuracy is listed are ±(0.3%) +1. 1 is the # of LSD. or 0.001V increments, which is the offset.
--> If you meter was in calibration, --> and the offset was really 1mV (only calibration will ensure that), then a reading of 3.2V would have an accuracy of no better than 3.2 x 0.003 + 0.001 = 0.0106V. No better than ±10.6mV. Which is my point. This is an overall accuracy that includes thermal effects, and so on. You can't be sure of any reading in the high end of that range is dependable to a smaller increment that 10mV. All those 0.00X V number are just noise. It also sounds like you are over volting that range, too. Some meters will not report an overload until some percentage above the range limit. Fluke essentially is not quoting an accuracy at all if you do that. The range is only 3.2V and down. You could read it in the 32V range where the minimum increment is, wait for it...10mV! No free lunch here. The offset in that range is 10mV and the % of reading is still 0.3%. So if you measured a 3.25V signal in the 32V range the accuracy of that is no better than ±0.01975V or ~±20mV. If you don't mind, I will take your readings with a grain of salt if I need to make judgments about things that are near as small as 10mV. I see you were measuring some amps too. 15mA you said, but not if that is with the Fluke 77. (I know the JLD404 doesn't even have a spec). With the 77 the best range for 15mA would be the 32mA range with increments of 0.01mA. The accuracy is ±(1.5%) + 2 LSD. Accuracy is then no better than (0.015 x 15) = 2 = ±2.225mA. That reading of 15mA could easily be 17.225mA or 12.775mA. Anyway, don't make decisions that cost a lot of money based on readings that are not accurate. And don't think that meters are in the middle of their range of accuracy, or even in the range at all if that has not been verified. I have instruments that go out all the time. Don't for get that if you take milliVolt and mA readings at the same time that the 77 has a 6mV burden for every mA that is passing through it. At the current the meter will be dropping 90mV across it. This is where shunts come in handy, but they need to be calibrated too. Mike On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Michael, > I have several large format LiFePO4 cells sitting in my garage. > One set I charged to 3.0V (to stay *under* the flat area of the SoC > curve) > and I am measuring the self-discharge of these cells with my old > Fluke 77 series II multimeter which has a range of 3.25V reading in mV. > So, discharging these cells from about 10% SoC, I can tell you that just > letting them sit will show self-discharge - less at low temp (close to > the freezing in my unheated garage now) and more when it was warmer. > > I am also measuring several cells that are being charged at very low > current (about 15mA at the moment) and I see them all creep up and > hitting a knee > at about 3.225V where the voltage rise suddenly slows down even though > the charging goes on with the same current, so apparently that point is > the start of the flat area in the SoC curve when charging. > > Of course you are free to think what you want, but I can tell you from > measurements that LiFePO4 cells *do* self discharge. Not much, but they > do and it is not equal between cells either. > > Regards, > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Michael Ross > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 2:15 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking headway completed packs > > Cor, > > I think that a lack of change in voltage is an indicator of lack change > in > state of charge - the best one can do at any rate. People talk about > LiFePO4 cells self discharging, but I I don't think it happens. Maybe > other formulations do, I don't know about that. > > The non-linearity does make voltage very insensitive as a measure of > SOC. > I get that. > > But when you have battery and someone says, "it is self discharging," I > am > not sure what else to do beside actually draining it down to zero and > integrating the amps to know it is losing charge; and even then the > knowing > is tenuous if the discharge was small. > > If you can't read tiny voltage well, and most of us cannot with our > handheld meters, then there is a very good chance that talk of self > discharge is just a reaction to measurement noise. > > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Michael, > > You are quoting voltage, which is not a linear indicator of charge. > > As quoted before, between 20 and 80% some battery chemistries like > > LiFePO4 might only change 1mV for each % of SoC. Other chemistries > react > > differently and in particular LiPoly and similar have a more linear > > relation between voltage and SoC. But still not completely linear so > you > > can still not do the calculation that you did. > > > > Regards, > > > > Cor van de Water > > Chief Scientist > > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > > Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of Michael Ross > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 12:38 PM > > To: [email protected]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking headway completed packs > > > > Have you ever seen a cell not connected to some parasitic load that > > loses > > 5% in a month? > > > > I think this is just a CYA, not a real spec. > > > > Over a month from 110/30 to 11/30 my 38120 pack lost and average of > > 0.0018125V/3.3430625*100% = 0.05% > > > > Over the last two weeks of it only 0.007% was lost. > > > > The 18650 pack lost 0.128% (0.004 V) over a 2 week period. > > > > Both started from a fresh charge. > > > > Since then I have been using them so there is no longer static period. > > > > I think when you charge them overmuch it is more like an electrostatic > > charge on top that diffuses over a bit of time and thermal cycling (a > > settling period). Once that is gone you are reading the actual cell > > voltage and there is almost no self discharge. > > > > Something to consider: 0.001V is really not so easy to read and most > of > > us, > > I bet, don't manage lab temperature, or even get periodic > calibrations. > > Neither our instruments or the environment supports this sort of > > accuracy. > > > > These single digit millivolt readings are very likely just noise, not > > real > > numbers worth paying attention to. Many people who are more > > knowledgeable > > (people who maintain calibrations and good lab practice needed for > small > > signal measurement) than I, say there is no self discharge; there is > no > > theory or evidence for how it could occur. It does not exist within > > a properly made Li cell. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:48 PM, George Tyler <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I am repairing a headway battery from china at the moment, made a > deal > > with > > > Conhismotor who supplied it, they supply the new cells and I do the > > labour. > > > I usually buy from evlithium. Dealing with china is different, > > freight > > > costs are so high that you have to consider the cost of sending a > pack > > back > > > carefully, it is often not worth it. This pack has 48 38120L cells, > > groups > > > of 3 in parallel, 16 groups in series. I see Headway spec says up to > > 5% per > > > month self discharge, but most of the pack has close to zero. The > BMS > > can > > > only bypass 50 or 100ma or so (it has SM resistors for this!), so it > > stands > > > little chance of equallising 5% per month difference. All the cells > > may be > > > in spec, but the battery does not work > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > On > > > Behalf > > > Of emf-evdl > > > Sent: Thursday, 19 December 2013 12:32 p.m. > > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking headway completed packs > > > > > > Buy direct from headway. > > > http://www.headway-cn.com/index.html > > <http://www.headway-cn.com/index.html > > > > > > > > > > Be warned, by the time you pay for shipping and any associated fees, > > you > > > get > > > a pack that has little or no warranty. Don't expect China to help > deal > > with > > > any warranty claims. > > > > > > After all is said and done, 38120S Headway cells aren't that much > > better > > > than some CALB cells. Depending on how many Ah you need, if you can > do > > > 40/60/100, then CALB are a much better deal. You don't have to worry > > about > > > all that bussbar. > > > > > > This is coming from someone who's built a few large packs using > > headway. > > > I'd > > > do it differently today. > > > > > > > > > > On December 18, 2013 at 2:08 PM Peakfoto Digital Photo Still n > Video > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Where can I find completed headyway battery packs form china or > > > something? > > > > > > > > I'm looking for 36 volts 8-10 ah pack . > > > > > > > > most amaercans dealers are spendy . > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > > > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > < > > > > > > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131218/63795 > > 1e5 > > > /attachment.htm> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain > > happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? > > *Dalai Lama * > > > > Tell me what it is you plan to do > > With your one wild and precious life? > > Mary Oliver, "The summer day." > > > > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > > Thomas A. > > > Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > > *Warren Buffet* > > > > Michael E. Ross > > (919) 550-2430 Land > > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > > Phone > > (919) 631-1451 Cell > > (919) 513-0418 Desk > > > > [email protected] > > <[email protected]> > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131219/cbf1 > > 7898/attachment.htm> > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > -- > Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain > happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? > *Dalai Lama * > > Tell me what it is you plan to do > With your one wild and precious life? > Mary Oliver, "The summer day." > > To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. > Thomas A. > Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > > A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. > *Warren Buffet* > > Michael E. Ross > (919) 550-2430 Land > (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google > Phone > (919) 631-1451 Cell > (919) 513-0418 Desk > > [email protected] > <[email protected]> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131219/8d3f > ac05/attachment.htm> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, "The summer day." To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk [email protected] <[email protected]> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20131219/0df1aeeb/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
