Don't forget the overly complex drive system to support the repair and maintenance revenue streams. Truly a benefit for the industry. Any collusion happening?
On June 26, 2014 8:28:16 PM CST, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >Ah, that clarifies a lot. > >So, you are saying that the laws that you are helping to craft >will mandate zero tail pipe emissions, even if the consequence is >that the total energy consumption increases due to the inefficiency >of the conversion to Hydrogen? >But simply the fact that natural gas combusts with a certain level >of pollutants and CO2 while Hydrogen produces only water vapor, >allows you to push Hydrogen at any cost, even if the total amount >of CO2 increases as a result and the cost of vehicles and >infrastructure >goes up unnecessarily? >That is one reason why I dislike those "local suboptimizing" laws >that allow only a single solution - effectively creating a monopoly. > >Thanks for clarifying what you are working on and why you are here. >I'll see if I can write representatives to warn for the boondoggle >that you are helping to create. >I suggest others with representatives in California do the same. > >Promoting the use of natural gas in cars (which is normal in many >countries) >would be a worthy "clean air" goal, reducing the pollutants and the CO2 >but the use of Hydrogen as intermediate storage is going to make >everyone's life difficult for a while, until we truly see >that the emperor has no clothes on. > >I am afraid that I can't wish you success. > >Cor van de Water >Chief Scientist >Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com >Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info >Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com] >Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 6:14 PM >To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions) > >Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it. > >On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ><ev@lists.evdl.org> >wrote: > >>> Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you. >> >> But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason >> that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion >> that there is no future in Hydrogen as fuel because it is >> worse than just using the source energy (that what is used >> to generate the Hydrogen in the first place). >> Converting to Hydrogen is just creating a loss and a headache. >> (headache of containing and transporting this aggressive element) >> So, except for a few niches, there is no place for Hydrogen. > >I will ignore the condescending comments. > >If you are saying that using natural gas directly in an ICE as opposed >to converting it to Hydrogen is a more efficient use, I would tell you >that you are missing my point. I will take the blame for not >communicating well enough. > >The purpose of the ZEV mandate is to transform the fleet to *Zero* >emission vehicles. We have public health standards that mandate these >reductions. There is no method that I am currently aware of that can >directly use natural gas (in an automobile) without combusting the >fuel. >Right there you have lost the design objective. Emissions are no longer >zero. > >> >> Of course, in a world void of scientists and filled with people >> who make vision papers based on someone else's fantasies, >> there is only one bright future - everything will be converted >> over to Hydrogen soon. > >I'll ignore the condescending and insulting comments you've just made >about the physicists and other scientists working on this. > > > >> >>> Better hope that H2 is not a loser, because then we are all losers. >> >> Hope has never changed the laws of Physics that I am aware of. >> >> That is the reason that you get such a push-back on this list, >> because there are plenty people here who do not have an "opinion" >> about Hydrogen (opinions have also not changed Physics) but who >> *understand* how efficiency work in terms of Physics and therefor >> they can *calculate* that Hydrogen is a losing proposition. >> >> It was a clear red flag when you avoided at all cost to discuss >> the technical details or Physics, you are now even blatantly saying >> that you do not want to discuss that topic. >> Either you *know* that this is the biggest problem of FCV and you >> prefer to avoid that subject, or you are truly unaware of the >> hot air balloon that is being passed around and which will cost the >> Californian taxpaers many millions of dollars without resuting in >> anything that will actually help to improve clean air. >> All the more troubling that you, 30 year clean air activist, >> are pursuing this non-option with so much vigor!!! >> >> For the record - I have no vested interest in or outside Hydrogen. >> I just have a BEV as daily driver and I am passionate about >> energy efficiency, because the best way to clean up pollution >> is to avoid creating it in the first place. And my background >> allows me to understand laws of Physics, which often leads me to >> clash with opinions that are based on anything but reality. >> >> In case I came across as argumentative, please excuse me, I am >> passionate about these subjects but I am always open to discuss >> the data and the Physics of possible solutions to evaluate what >> would be the best possible solution and which one does not fly. >> I have heard too many fantasies about Hydrogen Fuel Cell that it >> sometimes gets me on my soapbox. >> If you do not want to discuss data or Physics of FCV then I will >> take that you have a reason to hide the truth about Hydrogen's >> dark side and possibly you have a vested interest - I have seen >> those. But I have also seen Fuel Cell development councils that >> cancel the meetings on Hydrogen Fuel Cell, because they saw the >> light that it was just a hype, misleading governments worldwide >> to try and generate grants without chance of ever producing an >> energy efficient solution that would make a business case work. >> I applaud people who are flexibel and transparent enough to take >> new input and realize that they must change something, because >> what they were doing was not good. >> >> I, for one, hope that we can avoid strugging through H2 as loser >> and immediately go for a viable option as future. >> >> Cor van de Water >> Chief Scientist >> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com >> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info >> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 >> >> >> >>>> >>>>> Most often that's >>>>> natural gas (and IIRC the process produces more CO2 than getting >an > >>>>> equivalent amount of energy by directly burning the gas). >>>> >>>> The process produces less than the petroleum we're trying to >replace >> it with. >>> >>> Citation needed. >>> >>>> And the tailpipe emissions (the main driver for the regs) are zero. >>> >>> If the anti-BEV crowd can flog the old canard that BEVs just >transfer > >>> emissions to powerplant stacks, then they should also note that FCVs > >>> transfer emissions to the hydrogen production plants. Do they? >>> >>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >>> EVDL Administrator >>> >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not >>> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my >>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. 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