Whether a utility encourages off grid generation or not really depends on some factors, the principal one being what their generating capacity is. If they have bonds to pay off and excess capacity, they will want their customers to buy all their power. If they are reaching capacity and have to buy power elsewhere or build a new plant, they might look at it differently.

Here, Seattle gets most of its power from a city owned hydro plant. It sometimes has surplus power but, overall, the city buys some percent of power from other sources and doesn't want to invest in a large new plant (of any sort). So, it actively encourages small scale individual power generation.

Even while offering a higher buy back rate than the standard rate (as an incentive), they figure the city comes out ahead - it's cheaper than building new plants. I think we'll see more of this as the costs of new plants continue to rise and the costs of solar and wind continue to drop.

Peri

------ Original Message ------
From: "Michael Ross via EV" <[email protected]>
To: "Robert Bruninga" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 22-Dec-14 9:16:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid

I am with you Bob. As aggravating as it dealing with a utility company,
and as attractive as it is to be free of them, it is rarely a good
financial decision to drop use of an available grid. For as along as they can, utilities will be pricing there service to discourage us from going off grid.. THis will inevitably drop, but they will still be after some fee
if they can get it. That grid connection is not just money but also
support and influence.

Maybe if one is sitting on a big pile...but it still makes little financial
sense.

I would take exception with your knock on wood heat. A tree burned emits
no more than a a tree decayed on the forest floor.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[email protected]>
wrote:

 > So, I have my roof covered with solar panels.
 > my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly
 > "basic connection fees" for solar "customers."

 So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo. Big deal...

That is far-far (100 times ) cheaper than any home-energy storage system.

 Here is the lunacy of "going off-grid" when you already have it:

EXAMPLE: I have 17kw of solar generating capacity at home. In Maryland, I probably get about 60kWh on a good day. (for a net-ZERO annual electric
 kWh bill) ... BUT!!! In the last 2 weeks we have had ONLY ONE sunny
 day. (this is rare)... On overcast days, I maybe get 6 kWh.

But my electric load (now during worst winter solstice) is over 120 kWh
 per day (geothermal heatpump).

If I was off grid, I'd need at least SIX TESLA equivalent batteries to be
 able to continue living at the same life style, and then, in this
particular weather pattern, we would have run out of heat after 3 days and
 been cold fore more than a week. (they are forcasting 3 more days of
 clouds)...

But with grid tie, NO PROBLEM. I stored up over 4 months of energy kWh in the grid, which should carry me though the winter to break even at zero by
 the spring.

Even if they were not Tesla, but just Lead Acid batteries, and I wanted the same 5 day energy storage, I'd need 600 golf cart batteries, at $100 each or about $60,000 investment in batteries AND I would need to maintain
 them FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE and replace them every few years.
Lets say somehow they last 5 years, That is $12k per year or $1000 per
 month.

 All of a sudden, the $8 per month compared to $1000 amortized battery
 cost looks really great indeed. (and zero maintenance for grid tie).

 But, HERE IS THE THING EVERYONE OVERLOOKS:

1) Since you have to oversize your battery capacity to handle cloudy days,
 then BY DEFINITION, on every additional SUNNY day in a row, then your
 batteries are FULL and cannot accept any more charge. Thus you are
WASTING almost all of your solar panel investment on GOOD SUNNY DAYS in a
 row!!! (and most every summer day).

2) Even if you have say 5 days storage, that is miniscule compared to 365 days storage you get with the grid! In other words, you have no place to store the TWO-TIMES additional PV electricity you generate in the summer
 for when you need it most, in the winter. What a loss!

Talk to anyone off-grid. They live a miserable life in the winter, barely
 scraping by, and then have excess solar power in the summer that they
cannot even find ways to throw away because their batteries cannot take
 the extra.

 In Summary, if you have your own storage, and do NOT USE 100% of your
solar capacity EVERY DAY, then you are throwing away your solar investment
 every afternoon after the batteries approach full.

 See http://aprs.org/off-grid-NOT.html

 The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of
maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the
 winter when you need it.

Sure, you can burn oil, gas, propane, or wood for heat and drastically
 reduce your electric heating need, but then what about our goal of
 EMISSIONS FREE living?

 Bob, WB4aPR
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
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(919) 513-0418 Desk

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