Jim, You are forgetting a very important part and the whole reason that an economy of certificates was set up: By actually purchasing the green certificates to get "green power" you will not only guarantee that this amount of renewable power is purchased for you but also you put another thumb on the scale of the green certificate market, meaning that they become more desired, which leads to higher prices for green certificates, which means that you are voting with your wallet to make green projects profitable, which means that more of them will be built. Simple open market based supply and demand, where you increase the demand instead of just waiting for the meager pay from the PG&E's of this world to the green projects, making them not or marginally profitable, leading to stalling of new green investments. That is why I am happy to pay 1.5 cents to Arcadis Power who will guarantee that green power is bought for me in the form of green certificates. I am engineer enough to understand that green power injected into the distribution grid will not necessarily find its way into my home but it *will* offset dirty power from being generated somewhere, it is mostly an administrative (Bookkeeping) exercise, but that is fine. My aim is to stimulate green projects by making them profitable by increasing demand. If everyone does that, green projects won't have any trouble finding funding and be profitable - wind is already becoming cheaper in most areas than fossil powered electricity, so all the better to get more of it!
Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info http://www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Walls via EV Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:29 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Any recent surveys or focus groups of EV owners?(burning coal?) You do realize that regardless of whether you pay for clean power or not, makes absolutely no difference in how much power is generated from clean sources. Let me use some simple numbers for a demonstration. Let's say at any given time the load is 10,000 MegaWatts. At that same time, there is 1,000 MW of solar & wind power available. Therefore since the utilities are forced to buy the alternative power, 1,000 MW is coming from solar and wind. It makes no difference at all if 2,000 MW of customers or 200 MW of customers are paying for clean power. Even if you are generating the power from your own solar or wind and your are grid tied, you are just part of the 1,000 MW mentioned above. It may give you a warm fuzzy to know that your power is coming from a clean source, but overall it makes no difference. Now if you add let's say 10 KW of solar because you want to charge your EV from solar and are grid tied, you are now just part of the 1,000.01 MW that is coming from a clean source. Also note that since a rather large percentage of those that charge at home do so at night (since that's when we're NOT at work), and solar is the largest source of home generation (which doesn't work too well at night), you are charging from whatever your utility happens to have for a generation mix at that time. About the only way it makes any difference is if you are generating the power from a clean source AND you are NOT grid tied, and the alternative is you are generating the power from a dirty source. BTW, it may give you a warm fuzzy to know that you're paying for clean power, but understand that your utility does NOT have a separate distribution network for clean power. You are getting the same power that your next door neighbor who is not paying for clean power is getting. I am not trying to talk you out of either an electric vehicle or home generation, but understand the realities.. Jim Walls ---------------------------------------- From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 10:26 AM To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Any recent surveys or focus groups of EV owners? (burning coal?) But again, ONLY if the EV driver charges from the dirty grid. Most do not. Survey's show that most EV purchasers either subscribe to wind or solar electricity, or will as soon as their local utility offers it. <== that should be our focus! -----Original Message----- From: David Nelson . Subject: Re: [EVDL] Any recent surveys or focus groups of EV owners? (burning coal?) I know this isn't a direct answer to your question but the graphic of the US and what MPG a gas car would have to get to match a similar type EV charging on that grid is interesting. The dirtiest grid makes the EV equivalent to a 35mpg car. I didn't see any mention of NOx emissions so it isn't a complete picture on that part. http://insideevs.com/union-of-concerned-scientists-release-video-on-elec tric -car-global-warming-emissions/ On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[email protected]> wrote: >> You can also do this by examining the local utility fuel source in >> more > detail. >> Overall, the U.S. is only 39% coal. Some states are more, some less. >> Each utility usually has a web page with their numbers. > > Again, that misses the point. The "percent" I am after is how many EV > owners either have solar panels, or subscribe to 100% wind power from > their utility. That is an individual thing, has nothing to do with > the local utility mix unless they don't use solar or wind, then yes, > they are using the grid mix, but MOST EV owners do not do that. Most > arrrange to get 100% clean power, not the local coal mix. It is that > percent of owners who charge from 100% clean electricity that is > missing in most studies. Again, it was 45% in 2012 california study > and over 85% in a recent 2015 Ford study. > > Bob > >> >> A nice graphic for all states is at: >> >> https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plants/ >> >> Mike >> >> >> On November 25, 2015 7:53:34 AM MST, Robert Bruninga via EV < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >The most important EV survey needed is how many run thir cars on >> >COAL versus how many run on clean energy and what percent The only >> >studies I found were the 2012 or so one in California that said >> >about 47% of EV owners also charged from solr or wind and the recent >> >Ford survey that said 85% either use solar or wind or will when >> >their utility offers it. >> > >> >We need this data to combat the forever "EV's run on coal" argument. >> > >> >Bob >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Any recent surveys or focus groups of EV owners? >> > >> >You can find quite a few of us on https://speakev.com/ >> > From: Gerald Fittipaldi via EV <[email protected]> >> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> > Sent: Wednesday, 25 November 2015, 1:12 >> > Subject: [EVDL] Any recent surveys or focus groups of EV owners? >> > >> >I'm curious to know if there have been any recent surveys or focus >> >groups of people who own EVs, and the results. I'm most interested >> >in how people use their EVs, their satisfaction in the vehicles, >> >etc. I've tried googling, but other than the below Maine survey, I'm >> >coming up empty handed. I couldn't spot much on EVDL archives >> >either. Thanks. >> >http://www.nrcm.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/NRCMEVsurveyresults.p >> >df >> > >> >Gerald >> >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> >scrubbed... >> >URL: >> >< >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20151124/e6 >> fb681f/attachment.htm >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV >> >drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> >scrubbed... >> >URL: >> >< >> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20151125/54 >> d27709/attachment.htm >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV >> >drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >_______________________________________________ >> >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV >> >drag racing at NEDRA >> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20151125/0a > 20181d/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag > racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20151201/6bef 1bb4/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
