That's a better image. Do we really need seasonal storage for wind and
solar? Maybe we do but I haven't read anything yet. It's not possible
to tell from this graphic on how well batteries would do for storage up
to a week. I still contend - and the graphic seems to concur - that
batteries will do as well as pumped storage for duration.
As for scale, I don't really have a good guess on how much is needed.
According to the chart, and I've read this elsewhere too, pumped storage
is probably the best choice. But used batteries can help and they will
be readily available.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "David
Nelson" <[email protected]>; "brucedp5" <[email protected]>;
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 29-May-16 3:43:26 PM
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to
help smooth out the grid, +more
Basically, the chart says that it you compare the various energy
storage technologies, some are well suited for discharging over short
time periods and some for long, and some are well-suited for storing
large amounts of energy, and some smaller.
Here's a similar chart that seems to show up better, and shows where
batteries rank in comparison to other technologies.
Some energy storage can provide seasonal storage, which may be needed
in the future to handle the amount of renewable electricity we expect
to be generating.
How this helps.
- Mark
Sent from AltaMail
From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>To: [email protected]:
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>, "David Nelson"
<[email protected]>, brucedp5 <[email protected]>, "Electric
Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>Subject: Re[6]: [EVDL] Old
packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid,
+moreDate: 5/29/16, 3:05 PM
Yeah, that's tiny. Can't read it at all. Please try again.
But, better if you can explain in text in case any other readers wish
to see your answer.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "David
Nelson" <[email protected]>; "brucedp5" <[email protected]>;
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 29-May-16 3:03:20 PM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to
help smooth out the grid, +more
Sorry, misspoke, but this should help (let me know if it's not
reproducing well):
- Mark
Sent from AltaMail
From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>To:
[email protected]: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>, "David Nelson" <[email protected]>, brucedp5
<[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>Subject: Re[4]: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls
@L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +moreDate: 5/29/16, 2:33
PM
Still not clear, at least to me. Batteries - both lead and lithium
- seem to be able to hold a charge for months with little loss. In
practice for grid storage, I would think normally a week would be an
unusually long duration.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "David
Nelson" <[email protected]>; "brucedp5" <[email protected]>;
"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 29-May-16 2:16:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to
help smooth out the grid, +more
The limited ability of batteries to store energy for long periods
of time.
- Mark Abramowitz (speaking for myself)
President, Community Environmental Services
Senior Advisor and Immediate Past Chairman, California Hydrogen
Business Council
Board Consultant to Dr. Joseph K. Lyou, Governor's Appointee to the
South Coast Air Quality Management District Governing Board
Sent from AltaMail
From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>To:
[email protected], "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>CC: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>,
brucedp5 <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[email protected]>Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Old packs as
powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +moreDate:
5/29/16, 2:10 PM
Why do you say "over long periods of time, not so much?" I would
agree it's hard to say whether we can attain enough used batteries
for grid scale - depends on how many EVs are produced and how fast
we ramp down mined-resource energy generation.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Mark Abramowitz" <[email protected]>
To: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Cc: "David Nelson" <[email protected]>; "brucedp5"
<[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>
Sent: 29-May-16 2:06:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to help
smooth out the grid, +more
I agree with you on this...to a point.
For small scale and short time periods, batteries are great. For
grid scale over long periods of time... not so much.
- Mark Abramowitz (speaking for myself)
President, Community Environmental Services
Senior Advisor and Immediate Past Chairman, California Hydrogen
Business Council
Board Consultant to Dr. Joseph K. Lyou, Governor's Appointee to
the South Coast Air Quality Management District Governing Board
Sent from AltaMail
From: Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]>To: "David Nelson"
<[email protected]>, brucedp5
<[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls
@L3 EVSE sites to help smooth out the grid, +moreDate: 5/29/16,
12:52 PM
I definitely would like to see incentives for installing
"depleted"
batteries as solar and wind backup.
We're at a point in time where we can promote both wind and
solar while
winding down coal and gas power generation. Clearly, before we
can
retire all mined-resource power generation (primarily coal, gas,
nuclear), we need ways to store power for times when wind and
solar
don't generate enough.
Soon, we will begin to see a flood of depleted batteries from
EVs. With
incentives, the price offered for these used batteries would be
higher,
helping to lift the value of used EVs and increasing the demand
for new
EVs while at the same time helping to build our wind and solar
infrastructure.
In other words, right now, the need for utility level battery
storage is
low. But, gradually, as we retire coal & other plants, we can be
building utility battery storage and boosting EV production and
sales.
The sooner, the better, in my opinion.
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "David Nelson via EV" <[email protected]>
To: "brucedp5" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle
Discussion
List" <[email protected]>
Sent: 29-May-16 12:43:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Old packs as powerwalls @L3 EVSE sites to
help
smooth out the grid, +more
>On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 1:46 AM, brucedp5 via EV
<[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Why aren't they installing these power-walls at well used L3
EVSE
>>stations?
>> Is there a major utility complaint that highly used L3 EVSE
puts a
>>high
>> demand on the grid?
>> That the EV's power demand during peak HVAC power periods are
counter
>> productive?
>>
>> I think that a prime candidate is this L3 station at
Arlington City
>>Hall,
>OR (http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/47270). It is in a
"desert"
>of
>charging stations along I-84 and looking at the comments it is
the
>power
>company that is charging too much. Too bad the owner just
doesn't put
>the
>cost to charge to what it would cost for the power, at least
initially.
>
>Even a battery unit that didn't have enough to fully charge a
car could
>be
>used in combination with the grid where the grid is used to
just below
>the
>demand charge threshold and the battery supplying the rest.
When the
>car
>stops charging the battery unit would charge back up in
anticipation of
>the
>next vehicle.
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