Not all EVs must remain plugged in at all times. 'Enough' need to be plugged in.
Ignoring advances in tech, a couple J1772 plugged in V2G/V2H capable EVs per block could be enough to smooth out neighborhood subgrids from the startup/shutdown of household loads and improve voltage stability and reduce grid generation needs to react as quickly. I imagine any solar generation could also be modulated. Point being it doesn't have to be an all or nothing game. Agreed on the L1 demand side. Let it be modulated. But also provide some L2 and QC as human needs can be unpredictable, and when urgently needed must not be throttled. -- -Chris On June 7, 2017 5:25:02 PM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >I maintain that V2G is dead on arrival. It cannot work unless vehicles >are >plugged in all day, and every single one of them would need 50 Amp very >expensive L3 "stations". > >YET the Demand-response side of grid balancing is wide-open. And can >work >with nothing but rows of 120v L1 outlets at work parking. But it >demands >"charging-at-work". That is, cars are plugged in all day to simple L1 >120v >outlets while parked and are available for grid DUMPING of lower cost >energy >during the day as peak solar and peak wind provide. > >It’s a win-win-win. The Drivers win, people sho live in condos or >rentals >without home charging win, the company wins by being able to level its >peak >loads and the grid wins by being leveled. > >Already in California, Electricity is more plentiful (should be >cheaper) in >the day due to solar than it is at night. That's when we need to be >charging EV's at work! > >Its just a bridge to far to expect people to give the grid access to >their >$10,000 battery with little in return (V2G) > >Bob, WB4APR > >-----Original Message----- >From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de >Water >via EV >Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 5:45 PM >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List >Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170607 > >There are generally two different areas of V2G (Vehicle to Grid) that >each >have their own characteristics and are totally different in their >impacts: > >1. would better be called Grid Storage, this is where the grid is >supplied >with less generation capacity than what is needed for longer periods of >time >so that a storage buffer is needed to be filled during low consumption >periods (nights or morning) and is emptied during the afternoon/evening >peak >consumption period, so it is a daily cycling application. This is often >done >in conjunction with generation types that cannot be controlled such as >wind >and solar, they might deliver enough energy to balance the daily need, >but >not always at every point in time, hence the need for buffering. But >the >same thing can be designed using traditional generation that has lower >capacity than the afternoon/evening peak needed, but which can deliver >a >total amount of energy throughout the day to balance daily consumption > >2. this would better be called brownout protection or stability >control. >There are no large amounts of energy drawn from the battery ever, since >the >grid can at any point in time generally deliver enough energy to cover >consumption. But there are short moments when consumption spikes or >generation is switching or starting up, where a short burst of power is >needed to avoid the voltage/frequency dropping below spec. Truly >brown-out >protection to bridge over short periods (usually less than 1 second) of >high >power bursts. > >The second case is very different from the first one. >The first one simply puts extra *full* cycles on the pack, wearing it >out >faster. >The second one is virtually not measurable as added cycles, it behaves >similar to a vehicle driving around with regen braking: if you need to >slow >down a little and then acclerate, so you put energy back into your >battery >for a second and then accelerate again to pull that energy back out - >those >micro-cycles are hardly noticeable, especially when done while the pack >is >near half-full. >Since V2G allows the *grid* to communicate to the charger to stretch >out the >charging of the battery over the time until the car is needed again, it >might actually *prolong* the life of the pack, compared to simply >charging >full power as soon as plugged in. So, the second case of V2G might be >beneficial to the EV owner, not just in preserving his battery life, >but >also providing a more stable grid and for being *paid* to make (part >of) his >battery capacity available for this. >Just my view, >Cor. > >-----Original Message----- >From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross >via EV >Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 11:38 AM >To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20170607 > >Regarding the post: "EVLN: Researchers found delayed ToU G2V had a >negligible impact on EV pack capacity . >New study finds V2G discharging harmful to EV batteries " found in a >paper >entitled"" >Durability and reliability of electric vehicle batteries under electric >utility grid operations: Bidirectional charging impact analysis ;" >Journal >of Power Sources, Matthieu DubarryThere is this comment which >addresses my concern about the usefulness of >the study."... Since battery degradation is path-dependent, any >changes in usage can >lead to different degradation mechanisms and drastically influence the >reliability of the batteries.” > >I am waiting for the full text to look closer at the charge and >discharge >histories. I am not sure the path(s) they chose represent anything >useful. >Too many possible configurations and charge/discharge histories to say >if >grid connected EV packs necessarily must suffer this damage.BTW, the >article doesn't come up (needs subscription?). I used the info in >Bruce's transcription to find a source for the article. Hopefully it >will be >shared without cost.Mike > > >On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 4:42 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> >wrote: > >> >> >> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4. >> >nabble.com/EVLN-Opel-Ampera-e-EV-Is-The-Lastest-Popemobile-td4687007.h >> tml >> EVLN: Opel Ampera-e EV Is The Lastest Popemobile The current Pope >> Francis has been known to favor more low-key modes of transportation, >> but now he's received a more frugal kind of car altogether ... >> >> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4. >> >nabble.com/EVLN-Bolt-EVs-gt-A-PIECE-OF-THE-2-BILLION-PIE-td4687006.htm >> l >> EVLN: Bolt EVs> A PIECE OF THE $2 BILLION PIE Barry Woods is all >> charged up about electric vehicles in Maine Woods is the only Mainer >> who has a full-time job promoting electric vehicles. As director of >> electric vehicle innovation for ReVision Energy of Portland, the >> state's ... >> >> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4. >> nabble.com/EVLN-Researchers-found-delayed-ToU-G2V-had-a- >> negligible-impact-on-EV-pack-capacity-td4687005.html >> EVLN: Researchers found delayed ToU G2V had a negligible impact on EV >> pack capacity New study finds V2G discharging harmful to EV batteries >> >> + >> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4. >> nabble.com/Mendocino-County-CA-Adds-New-Electric-Vehicle- >> Charging-Stations-td4687004.html >> Mendocino_County-CA Adds New Electric-Vehicle Charging Stations ... >> ... upping the ante on its longstanding commitment to environmental >> sustainability by opening the second of a planned 14 electric-vehicle >> (EV) charging stations ... >> >> >> >> >> http://evdl.org/evln/ >> For all EVLN EV-newswire posts >> >> >> {brucedp.neocities.org} >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle- >> discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-EV-newswire- >> posts-for-20170607-tp4687008.html >> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive >at >> Nabble.com. >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV >drag >> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ >> group/NEDRA) >> >> > > >-- >To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. >Thomas A. Edison ><http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> > >A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. >*Warren Buffet* > >Michael E. Ross >(919) 585-6737 Land >(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Mobile >and >Google Phone > >michael.e.r...@gmail.com ><michael.e.r...@gmail.com> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170607/efab5bb4/attachment.htm> >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag >racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag >racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
