Look up fan assisted radiators, or fan convectors.

On 30 November 2017 at 15:35, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> Robert, your method of putting fans near a radiator is something I had
> wanted to try. Really getting OT, here, so if people prefer, reply
> privately.
>
> A couple years ago I had to replace my gas furnace. I looked into getting a
> heat pump system but it was not possible with the various constraints and
> payback period so I bought a new gas furnace :(
>
> Anyway, one of the options I studied was to put in radiators instead of
> forced air. I would have run pex through the ducts to each register. One of
> the advantages of this kind of unit would have been space - no blowers, and
> I could have reclaimed return air duct space.
>
> I didn't want surface mount radiators because of the space they take. It
> might have been possible, but not easy. Instead I wanted to find some
> recessed radiators with a small fan to waft the air over the fins and into
> the room - gently, not with a breeze. Couldn't find any such product. Also,
> the fans would have to be very high quality in order to last and operate
> extremely quietly.
>
> Has anyone considered this?
>
> Peri
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc: "Robert Bruninga" <bruni...@usna.edu>
> Sent: 30-Nov-17 4:54:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (with radiators)
>
>> Yep, 90F is just fine for heating since it is continuous and low velocity.
>> Sure, people love to stand over a blast of 140F furnace air, for the few
>> minutes the furnace is on, because they get so cold with no warm air when
>> it cycles off.  I prefer the consistent warming of my heatpump and
>> cast-iron radiators.
>>
>> PLUS it reduced our $3000/yr oil costs down to only $1000 electric which
>> was easily made up with another solar array to keep us 100% carbon and oil
>> free.  See http://aprs.org/geothermal.html
>>
>> The water in the heatpump and old cast iron radiators rarely gets above
>> about 105F and yet heats the house in Maryland just fine*.  Of course,
>> being a hacker, I keep the hot water that low (higher efficiency for the
>> heatpump) by having some convenient fans by some of the radiators where we
>> can hide the fans.  This doubles convection and heat flow while keeping
>> the water temp lower.  The heatpump can go to 126F, but the efficiency is
>> -much- lower than when it is running at only 105F.
>>
>> PLUS it is free "zone" heat in every room, simply by which fans are on.
>>
>> I even wired an outlet on the floor near every radiator where we can hide
>> a fan, so that the fans only come on while the compressor is running.
>>
>> Our church went from $4000/yr for Propane down to $1100 added electric
>> with an air-source heatpump.  And again, we are reducing that to zero with
>> another solar array.
>>
>> * When temps get below about 20F, then the radiator water temp does get to
>> about 115F and the house can barely maintain 65F.  At lower temps, I
>> finally turn on the AUX heat.
>>
>> The three HVAC companies all wanted to design an 8 TON heatpump and all
>> were leery that the water temp would not be high enough for COMFORT
>> because "radiators are designed for 140F".  I argued, that the house was
>> built with no insulation and with blown in insulation a few decades ago,
>> that the radiators are now oversized, AND that if I needed more heat, I'd
>> do the fan thing.
>>
>> Two of the three companies refused to do the job because they clearly had
>> rarely done a heatpump-to-hot water system and only were following
>> "typical" guidelines without any actual "engineering" to match my needs.
>> The winning contractor, agreed to do it MY way and his was the lowest
>> price too.  He got $28k, the others wanted $38k and $48k.  Half of that
>> was the HEATPUMP cost.  The other half was for the Geothermal wells.  A
>> lot, but reducing my family's $6000/yr energy costs down to only about
>> $300/yr very qickly has made it up.
>>
>> If we had gone for air-source instead of ground-source, the cost would
>> have been half but not quite as efficient.  Besides, the wife wanted a new
>> driveway, and since that is where the wells had to go, then she got a new
>> driveway (costing more than the entire HVAC system in the first place) yet
>> that was all part of the job which also qualified for the 30% energy tax
>> credits.
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 12:22 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: ROBERT
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>> unit)
>>
>> Anyone who has a home heat pump can check the register temperature with a
>> thermometer.  You will find if the heat strips are not energized the
>> maximum temperature is about 90 F with an outside air temperature of about
>> 68 F.  Give it a try.  Then tell me I am incorrect.  In addition, the
>> current building codes require a 15% fresh air intake to the return air.
>> The old codes allowed a closed recirculating system.  This does not help
>> the efficiency but improves the air quality in the structure.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of EVDL Administrator via
>> EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:13 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: EVDL Administrator
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC
>> unit)
>>
>> On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:
>>
>>> A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.
>>> This low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to
>>> a lot a people.
>>
>>
>> I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.
>>
>> I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
>> does the air from the vents feel in the winter?
>>
>> I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
>> not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace
>> brand) at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me,
>> meaning that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite
>> believeable.
>>
>> That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
>> Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most
>> of the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be
>> well above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
>> temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
>> temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.
>>
>> Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
>> feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect
>> it to have auxiliary resistive heat.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
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