Hi Mark etc,
Fundamentally: There's really *too* many variables to do FSD (full self driving) safely. I just got back from Blacksburg, VA, professor Dave's Tesla-3 with the *latest* as of 2-8-22 self driving software to show off. We let it drive us around Blacksburg (about 30 minutes) and it got confused, *stuck* in a round-a-bout, another road T, had to give it some accel and then made a left turn *almost hitting* a big black truck head-on (Dave jerked the steering wheel thankfully). Going back through the neighborhood, someone popped out between two parked vehicles on the side of the road and it almost clipped her. Due droplets on the cameras (or mud) can cause intermittent issues I've found. It's a great EV but Tesla needs to drop this self driving thing, not worth having live folks as experiments. I thought with multiple computers drop out issues would be solved, but now I'm convinced after seeing firsthand actual FSD errors not to pay the extra (now $12K I was just told) to be part of Elon's experiment. Best Regards, The other Mark Hanson Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:43:29 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Laity-Snyder <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: [EVDL] Fw: Request Tesla crash data Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mark:? Thanks for this.? I am not sure if it will help.? I agree with you that Tesla should have two or even 3 computers for full self driving.? If one were to glitch out, that is all that is preventing you or many others from being injured or killed.? Tesla has a 5 star safety rating.? So the passengers and driver will probably be ok but bystanders be aware. EVDL: ?I am the guy Mark was talking about.??Story time!? So my wife got in the 1st Tesla accident.? FSD was on and she was driving.? She was fiddling with the sound system (or something) on the lovely screen that practically begs you to play with it and we were on a road we don't often go down.? It happened to be a T intersection with a stop sign.? She saw the stop sign too late and ran into a short wall.? This was before FSD registered stop signs and would have slowed down for a stop sign.? Such is our luck.? On the 2nd Tesla accident, I can't remember the details leading to the accident since I sustained a pretty bad head injury (enough to cause double vision for 6 months).? However we saw the dash cam footage which shows the car just driving off the road.? No change in speed or course correction.? I was given many tests after the accident to rule out some physical problem that may have caused me to lose consciousness.? There was no smoking gun that would say "Yes he lost consciou sness because...".? I am lucky Tesla has that 5 star safety rating because other than the double vision I had no lasting injuries.? The people who were going to move the vehicle wanted to cut the vehicle at the battery.? Fortunately someone realized it was a Tesla and didn't do that which would have started a runaway fire.?? So lessons learned are exactly what folks have said about losing focus.? FSD is very good ALMOST all the time.? In that one case out of 1000+ the human must be ready to take over in a split second. I am still very hopeful for FSD to be solved. If any company can do it it will be Tesla at this point since they have the most data.? I think the super computer is just used for training the cars to get better and the more data they have the faster that will happen.? Waymo has a lovely system that only works in the geofenced area that is premapped and safe.? ?I agree with Lawrence that cameras should be all that is needed.? Radar was probably giving false signals.? Then there is question of priority.? The cameras see all clear but the radar sees something else like a leaf or snow or a rabbit.? Which one has priority??? I am not sure where my focus was but it was not where it needed to be.? I was out of work for over 8 months and now I can't afford to replace the Tesla.? It is a great car.? Even after all that, I would probably get FSD again especially since it is improving so rapidly.? It is like having a front row seat watching our computer overlords take their first steps before they take over our lives. ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: mark hanson <[email protected]>To: 'Mark Laity-Snyder' <[email protected]>Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022, 10:39:55 PM ESTSubject: Request Tesla crash data Hi Mark, ? I saw a few articles that Tesla will supply the crash data recorded in the vehicle: https://www.tesla.com/support/privacy .? I think you said in both your cases, that the vehicle thought the self driving or auto pilot was off when it was actually on.? It needs at least 3 computers to vote for life critical operations, like self driving on a curvy road ? glitch, drops out & goes straight, ok for a desk PC but not for a vehicle.? Seeing this thread go around on the EVlist again. ? Have a renewable energy day, ? Mark ? Mark E. Hanson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20220208/d3a23bc6 /attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 06:21:49 -0500 From: Peter Eckhoff <[email protected]> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data Message-ID: <CADDOj2ASKMeyZHfj4Ez2p=Uodo9DTbhWFaOLKn=sxj8r643...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All these stories remind me of the one where there was a road with a sharp left turn. One foggy night, some kid ran the yellow line at the apex of the "L" straight up the proverbial oak tree. In the morning, he came back and found he got a car. Someone was following the yellow line right up and into that tree. That story has me thinking that Tesla, Waymo, etc. are needing to pass a Pankster Obstacle Situation (POS) test in order to be certified as anywhere near Level 5. At a T-intersection, Tesla missed a Stop sign?? Why did it not recognize that it was at a Stop signable intersection and come to a complete (okay "the coast is clear" rolling) stop? What would happen if a drunk took out the sign the day before and it had not been replaced? What happens if a kid places a garbage bag over the stop sign in an impromptu POS test? In an interview between Sandy Munro and Elon Musk, Musk was saying that road line painting was not standardized and Tesla was having a hard time navigating through road construction areas. Here you have an area where people are working and are expecting to go home at shift's end instead of to a hospital or morgue. Okayyy, Tesla is working on it. Last night, I put my Tesla Model Y into Autopilot a little before a construction area. It was a slow drizzle/rainy night. Autopilot lost it and I had to take control. I'm grateful that no one was beside me and it didn't go the other direction and into a Jersey Barrier. Autopilot had grabbed the "wrong lines"? The more questions I ask of FSD and its kin, the more I am convinced that the sensors should be beefing up the driver's skills and alerting them to possible bad situations instead of trying to play God with your safety and mine. I think we have to ask questions of any FSD system. FSD is not an airliner being able to fly autonomously between point A and B in a well controlled airspace or SpaceX nailing a landing on a barge somewhere out in the middle of the Atlantic. We are dealing with situations where people, cars, and environmental factors interact in a myriad of ways every second of the day. You don't have a kid kicking a ball out onto a runaway or a commuter/pedestrian with "get home-itis" in the middle of the Atlantic. When was the last time a deer crossed the path of a SpaceX rocket? I think it is past time to rethink about obtaining Level 5 and concentrate on beefing up driver awareness of potential problems and letting the computer between our ears try and handle these situations. We are far better in reading the intentions of other drivers and pedestrians than any FSD package that may have a problem recognizing and then displaying the silhouette of a pedestrian. Peter Eckhoff PS I love my Model Y and I am not going to sell it. She's like a beloved girl friend with a few bad habits. Have a renewable energy day, Mark Mark E. Hanson 184 Vista Lane Fincastle, VA 24090 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell REEVA: community service RE & EV project club Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery) UL Certified PV Installer My RE&EV Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh REEVA Demo: <http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0> http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 <https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89 75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20220208/c803e61b/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
