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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV (Greg Owen)
2. Re: battery help (storm connors)
3. Re: twin, different motors? (Marty Hewes)
4. Re: battery help ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
5. Buying in China (Mark Grasser)
6. My TS experience (Seppo Lindborg)
7. Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes (Mark Eidson)
8. Re: My TS experience (damon henry)
9. Re: twin, different motors? (Jeff Major)
10. PFC 30 Timer Position Help (Mark Dutko)
11. Re: PFC 30 Timer Position Help (MIKE WILLMON)
12. Re: twin, different motors? (Jim Husted)
13. Remember the Smart copy.. (jukka)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:03:25 -0400
From: Greg Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings, Re: New HEV and EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Marty Hewes wrote:
> Consistancy is another issue. Here, in the US, we pretty much figure
> a barcode SKU is for a given product, and it doesn't change.
...
> Stuff like that happens here too.
Getting further off topic, sometimes unnoticed changes have effects much
further down the line. Some of you may remember Flight 529
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Southeast_Airlines_Flight_529),
in which a propeller blade failed catastrophically in mid-flight and
forced an emergency landing attempt into a field. The resultant crash
and fire killed 10 people.
The immediate cause was "undiscovered metal fatigue due to corrosion."
Propellers blades need to be balanced properly. If I recall the details
correctly, lead shot and some sort of epoxy is pushed inside the tip of
the blade to add weight for fine balance. A cork plug is then pushed up
to provide more support.
With these particular propellers, the cork supplier changed their method
of bleaching the cork and did not notify Hamilton Standard, the
propeller maker. The new method left (IIRC) chlorine bleach residue in
the cork. When this mixed with normal moisture inside the propeller
blade, it resulted in hydrochloric acid, which ate away at the blade
from the inside.
Now, obviously the more immediate blame for the failure was with the
failure of the inspection process to correct for these cracks. The
corrosion had been discovered due to two previous propeller failures,
but the inspection and repair techniques were not sufficient to
compensate for the damage. But for me this remains an illustration of
how a small problem can grow insidiously as it gets further down the chain.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:06:13 -0400
From: "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I went through the same agony trying to figure out how to power the Suzuki.
It is a small vehicle like your bug. I ended up with the Goldilocks decision
of 18 8v golf cart batteries for a total weight of 3,030 pounds. I am
finding for myself what the rest already know. The whole effect depends on
how you drive it. Last weekend I went 33 miles on 99 amp hours. There was
still capacity left. This is on very hilly terrain. I avoid going over 200
battery amps if possible. On some of the local hills it's tough, but the
right foot can be trained. OTOH, 70mph and jackrabit starts can take me over
5 amp hours per mile with, I expect, a corresponding drop in battery life.
Anyway, you will probably come to the same conclusion I did. 120-144v of 8v
FLAs. Plan not to abuse them.
On 8/16/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I am looking at getting some batteries that will make my 28 mile
> > commute... Prestolite MTC4001, Curtis 1231C, in the old style bug...
> > 120-144v... I would like to have some battery recommendations.
>
> You've had lots of good comments so far. I can add a few.
>
> 6v golf cart batteries would be great. They can easily meet your range
> requirements. They last a long time, and will give you the lowest cost
> per mile. But they are pretty heavy for a bug; 120-144v worth is
> 1200-1600 lbs.
>
> 8v golf cart batteries should also work well. The range would be less,
> but with care can still make your commute (avoid fast acceleration and
> high speed driving). Cost per mile will be a little higher; they cost
> less initially, but more than make up for it with shorter life. They
> will be lighter, at 1000-1200 lbs.
>
> 12v batteries like the 30XHS would be a poor choice. Life will be very
> short, and it's unlikely they would give you the range you seek unless
> you drive very slow and conservatively.
>
> The Curtis 1231 is easily capable of drawing enough battery current to
> shorten the life of your batteries. I'd suggest turning its current
> limit pot (on the side of the case behind the screw) all the way down to
> keep yourself from inadvertently ruining the batteries by overdoing it.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:58:13 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] twin, different motors?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I am yet unconvinced. NetGain lists red line for all their motors at the
same RPM, so I'm not worried about overrevving the bigger motor. It's not
about total torque produced over a narrow band, it's about having good
torque over a wider RPM range, like an AC motor with lower cost. The curves
show that at low RPM, the big motor dominates, but as RPM goes up, a smaller
motor produces more torque than a big one unless the pack voltage is pretty
high. Just look at the torque and horsepower curves for the motors for
voltages of 144 or less. Big motors (11" or bigger) crap out below 3000
RPM, small ones then out pull them to 5500. The sum of the two might be
interesting. I need to draw some composite curves before I rule the idea
out. The combination wouldn't produce more peak power at the point the
controller is just coming out of current limiting, because that's determined
mostly by the battery and controller capabilities anyway, not the motor, but
I really think it might provide decent power over a wider RPM range,
counteracting a big motor's tendency to go flat as RPM rises because of back
EMF limiting current, which might benefit eliminating the trans. Our
problem with running without a trans is that the controller current limit
limits power at low RPM when current is high, and the pack voltage limits
power at higher RPM. I think that with two different size motors in
parallel, the big one would automatically dominate at low RPM, and as RPM
rises, the smaller one would take over. I suspect it would act a little
like a CVT in terms of matching battery capability to road speed. The
motors would have to stay electrically in parallel, or the power would
always go to the less capable motor instead.
Jim is absolutely correct on one point, that the smaller motor could easily
be overworked. As RPM rises, the current, and heat, migrates to the small
motor because of lower back EMF, so the small motor would have to have
enough capacity to do most of the work at higher RPM. This wouldn't be a
setup for Bonneville speed record attempts or highway speed mountain driving
without a trans. Here in Illinois? Maybe.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] twin, different motors?
> Hey Jeff
>
> I couldn't have said it better 8^) BTW I'm not
> scrawny I consider it more like being bulk challenged
> 8^o
>
> I will say some of those here are not overly concerned
> about having to warranty a motor 8^P
>
> Anyway I feel the wheelbarrow stories help people to
> see how things work duty cycle wise. Maybe we should
> write a wheelbarrows guide to motor usage, LMAO.
>
> Had fun
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> --- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hey Marty,
>>
>> Instead of talking volts and amps, I'll try it like
>> some other guys explain stuff.
>>
>> Say Dad has a big pile of dirt in the yard he needs
>> moved. He gets his twin sons, Bill and Ted, out
>> there
>> to move half of it. But he has just one
>> wheelbarrow.
>> He puts Ted on one handle and Bill on the other.
>> Dad
>> fills the wheelbarrow with dirt, he has a
>> skidloader,
>> he's not stupid. Then Bill and Ted push the loaded
>> wheelbarrow over to the other side of the yard.
>> They
>> both go at the same speed, obviously. Bill and Ted
>> are the same size boys and do an equal amount of
>> work
>> and get equally exhausted.
>>
>> Now, half the pile is moved and Bill and Ted go off
>> down the street to tease the girls. Dad then calls
>> out his other two sons, Jim and Marty, who are not
>> twins. Jim is a little scrawny boy and Marty is a
>> husky dude. Just like with the twins, Jim takes one
>> handle and Marty the other. Now, when they start
>> pushing, Marty really leans into it and Jim does all
>> he can. Still going at equal speeds, they get it up
>> to pace and continue across the yard. But Jim, the
>> scrawny kid, is really working hard now, while Marty
>> is just cruising. They get the job done. Marty
>> goes
>> off to the gym for his workout. But poor Jim is
>> lying
>> on the ground moaning. Dad takes Jim to the
>> hospital
>> and checks him in for a rewind.
>>
>> Get my meaning?
>>
>> Jeff M
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>> Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
>> that gives answers, not web links.
>>
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
> that gives answers, not web links.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:29:57 -0600
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] battery help
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It is 28 miles round trip. I should be able to charge at the halfway point as
well.
What is your suggestion on batteries?
Brian
On Thu Aug 16 9:54 , David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
>On 16 Aug 2007 at 7:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> I am looking [for] batteries that will make my 28 mile commute.
>
>Is that 28mi one way, or round-trip?
>
>Can you charge at work? If yes, it'll be MUCH easier.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:43:36 -0400
From: "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Buying in China
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I have been involved with, excuse me, worked for, been employed by, a
company for the last seven years that imports "our designed" product from
China. The company that builds our product does "100% testing". Yet I am
always finding product that does not run out of the box. Last week I tested
a product that the bench techs said did not run. I found one of the on board
PICs to be void of program. Programmed it and the unit ran fine. It is my
opinion that as soon as I leave the factory visit that they put a plastic
sheet over the QC department and simply ship what they build.
For this reason, and a few others, I have left the company and am now doing
design consulting work.
BUYING IN CHINA IS SCARY AT BEST!
Taiwan is a lot better place to manufacture then China and only a little
more costly.
ONE MORE THING.
I have finally put the 928 up for sale, quit the Porsche chat room and in
the next month will leave join this list full time. Hope I don't become to
much of a pest to you guys but it is time for me to move on to the next
chapter of my life.
Mark Grasser
PH: 828-581-4601
FAX: 828-581-4602
Blue Ridge Marine Consulting, LLC.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:57:24 +0200 (CEST)
From: Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] My TS experience
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-15"
Hello all!
Back from the summer holidays. There really is a heavy Thunder Sky
bashing going on here. The picture that you get from most of the
stories is quite gloomy, both technically and businesswise.
I don't know about their way of making business, but here are some
technical experiences as a user.
Since March 2007 I have been driving a Subaru Elcat, equipped with
ThunderSky batteries and a BMS from Jukka.
The original Subaru Elcat has a lead-acid pack, 78 V, 180 Ah, 416 kg.
Range is something like 50 km.
The lithium pack is 80 V, 350 Ah, 312 kg pack, built of 24 ThunderSky
350/400 Ah batteries.
I have made almost 6000 km (4000 miles) now, which comes mostly from
commuting to work. My total commute both-way is 76 km (47 miles),
which
distance I can now make very well without charging at work. Although I
charge at work anyway, maybe once or twice a week. This is because the
car's charger is only 1.6 kW and charging only at home at night is not
always sufficient.
The average drive per charge might be something like 60 km (37 miles).
This means that I have made some 90-100 charging cycles with the
batteries now. No change in battery behaviour or capacity degradation
has been observed.
Range figures: My normal consumption for the one-way commute is very
close to 100 Ah, which gives: 100 Ah/38 km = 2.64 Ah/km. Energywise it
makes 2.64 Ah/km * 80 V = 210 Wh/km = 340 Wh/mile.
Mathematically you get for the range: 350 Ah / 2.64 Ah/km = 132 km =
82 miles.
I have never tried to test the maximum range, but my longest drive on
one charge has been 110 km (68 miles), and there was yet no sign of
nearing the limit, only the cell voltages started to sag a bit.
Normally the cell voltage stays between 3.1-3.3 V depending how heavy
foot you have.
Note also that approximately one half of my commute is done with the
accelerator floored (the top speed of the Elcat is 85 km/h (53 mph)
which just barely lets one keep the normal road traffic rhythm, and
not
even that at up-hills ;). So with a little lighter foot there should
be
no problem reaching 150-160 km (90-100 miles), and I think you can
make
even 180-200 km (110-120 miles) if you drive slowly and carefully.
I have been very happy with the batteries' performance. There is
tremendous difference to lead-acid technology, and also to NiCd
technology.
Seppo Lindborg
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:30:14 -0700
From: "Mark Eidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
You are correct, it took me 20 minutes to get out of the parking
garage this morning and that was at 7AM. me
On 8/15/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark,
> Congrats! Fine looking vehicle construction and
> license perseverance.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] & GoWheel staff
>
> --- Mark Eidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Finally some good news. Arizona MVD Enforcement
> decided that they could inspect my bike,
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=1231
> and assign and apply a Special AZ Vehicle Number. I
> took the inspection documents to a different location
> where they added up my receipts to determine the
> amount of Motor Vehicle Bond I would have to get
> before I could get my title. The Bond is required
> since there was no previous documentation for the
> vehicle and is refundable after 3 years.
> The Bond was for 1.5x the sum of the receipts. So I'm
> off to my insurance agent to get the bond and
> insurance. The bond cost 1% of the 1.5x
> total......about $100 and thanks to the
> recommendations of this group the 13HP Electric
> Motorcycle was easily added to my current home and
> car package with State Farm with all the same
> coverages. Then I'm back to MVD to get
> the title and liscense to be pleasently supprised
> with the $9.25 registration fee and no smog test
> requirement. AZ seems to be a bit more progressive
> that I anticipated. If it does not look like rain
> tommorow I finally get to drive it to work. me
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Need a vacation? Get great deals
> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
> http://travel.yahoo.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:42:43 +0000
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] My TS experience
To: EV List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:57:24 +0200> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
> ev@lists.sjsu.edu> Subject: [EVDL] My TS experience> Since March 2007 I have
> been driving a Subaru Elcat, equipped with> ThunderSky batteries and a BMS
> from Jukka.> The original Subaru Elcat has a lead-acid pack, 78 V, 180 Ah,
> 416 kg.> Range is something like 50 km.> The lithium pack is 80 V, 350 Ah,
> 312 kg pack, built of 24 ThunderSky> 350/400 Ah batteries.
What kind of current do you typically draw?
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more?.then map the best route!
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:57:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] twin, different motors?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hey Marty,
Pushing the wheelbarrow over to the side, I'll give
you a couple of my impressions.
First off I do not have the motor curves you refer to.
Please send them and I'll look them over. But as
for now, there are many different designs possible for
the two different motors. Just how they would
interact depends a lot on the particular design of
each.
You mention "having a good torque over wider RPM
range, like an AC motor." I have done both, DC and
AC, motors. When you push an AC motor to its limits,
the resultant speed/torque map shape closely resembles
that of a series wound DC motor. At the higher
frequencies (RPM) with the AC motor, you end up field
weakening (or reducing the volts/hertz), so you lose
torque. On the other end, the AC motor (induction)
will have a torque limit (breakdown) and the DC motor
a controller current limit. The shape of the
speed/torque maps are about the same, just that the AC
motor is higher speed/less torque that the DC. But
with proper gearing, they become nearly equal, some
torque advantage to the DC.
So, I guess I have to question your motivation here.
What you have proposed, in my opinion, will work.
But, again in my opinion, is likely to less effective
than two equal motors. That is for a given total mass
of iron and copper, two equal motors will give you
better performance and thermal suitability than two
different sized motors.
I realize that you have to work with what is
available, but if your goal is to shape the
speed/torque curve to suit a particular need, this can
be done by altering design in a single motor. Or by
the control method of the motor. A simple method
comes to mind when you say "counteracting a big
motor's tendency to go flat as RPM rises because of
back EMF limiting current". Switch in a field
weakening resistor.
Another point, you say "As RPM rises, the current, and
heat, migrates to the small motor because of lower
back EMF". Now, both motors have the same RPM. Both
have the same applied voltage. Why do you think the
Eg is less in the small motor? That is saying that
the equivalent motor resistance times the current in
the small motor is larger than in the big motor. It
might be. Might not be. The motor currents are not
necessarily equal. And their resistance is unlikely
equal.
But, I encourage you to pursue this. You might come
up with something to work well for your application.
Certainly, plotting out the motor curves and summing
the torques vs RPM will give you a good look.
I guess I just worry about the little guy going under
the knife for a rewind.
Good luck,
Jeff
--- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am yet unconvinced. NetGain lists red line for
> all their motors at the
> same RPM, so I'm not worried about overrevving the
> bigger motor. It's not
> about total torque produced over a narrow band, it's
> about having good
> torque over a wider RPM range, like an AC motor with
> lower cost. The curves
> show that at low RPM, the big motor dominates, but
> as RPM goes up, a smaller
> motor produces more torque than a big one unless the
> pack voltage is pretty
> high. Just look at the torque and horsepower curves
> for the motors for
> voltages of 144 or less. Big motors (11" or bigger)
> crap out below 3000
> RPM, small ones then out pull them to 5500. The sum
> of the two might be
> interesting. I need to draw some composite curves
> before I rule the idea
> out. The combination wouldn't produce more peak
> power at the point the
> controller is just coming out of current limiting,
> because that's determined
> mostly by the battery and controller capabilities
> anyway, not the motor, but
> I really think it might provide decent power over a
> wider RPM range,
> counteracting a big motor's tendency to go flat as
> RPM rises because of back
> EMF limiting current, which might benefit
> eliminating the trans. Our
> problem with running without a trans is that the
> controller current limit
> limits power at low RPM when current is high, and
> the pack voltage limits
> power at higher RPM. I think that with two
> different size motors in
> parallel, the big one would automatically dominate
> at low RPM, and as RPM
> rises, the smaller one would take over. I suspect
> it would act a little
> like a CVT in terms of matching battery capability
> to road speed. The
> motors would have to stay electrically in parallel,
> or the power would
> always go to the less capable motor instead.
>
> Jim is absolutely correct on one point, that the
> smaller motor could easily
> be overworked. As RPM rises, the current, and heat,
> migrates to the small
> motor because of lower back EMF, so the small motor
> would have to have
> enough capacity to do most of the work at higher
> RPM. This wouldn't be a
> setup for Bonneville speed record attempts or
> highway speed mountain driving
> without a trans. Here in Illinois? Maybe.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] twin, different motors?
>
>
> > Hey Jeff
> >
> > I couldn't have said it better 8^) BTW I'm not
> > scrawny I consider it more like being bulk
> challenged
> > 8^o
> >
> > I will say some of those here are not overly
> concerned
> > about having to warranty a motor 8^P
> >
> > Anyway I feel the wheelbarrow stories help people
> to
> > see how things work duty cycle wise. Maybe we
> should
> > write a wheelbarrows guide to motor usage, LMAO.
> >
> > Had fun
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> > --- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hey Marty,
> >>
> >> Instead of talking volts and amps, I'll try it
> like
> >> some other guys explain stuff.
> >>
> >> Say Dad has a big pile of dirt in the yard he
> needs
> >> moved. He gets his twin sons, Bill and Ted, out
> >> there
> >> to move half of it. But he has just one
> >> wheelbarrow.
> >> He puts Ted on one handle and Bill on the other.
> >> Dad
> >> fills the wheelbarrow with dirt, he has a
> >> skidloader,
> >> he's not stupid. Then Bill and Ted push the
> loaded
> >> wheelbarrow over to the other side of the yard.
> >> They
> >> both go at the same speed, obviously. Bill and
> Ted
> >> are the same size boys and do an equal amount of
> >> work
> >> and get equally exhausted.
> >>
> >> Now, half the pile is moved and Bill and Ted go
> off
> >> down the street to tease the girls. Dad then
> calls
> >> out his other two sons, Jim and Marty, who are
> not
> >> twins. Jim is a little scrawny boy and Marty is
> a
> >> husky dude. Just like with the twins, Jim takes
> one
> >> handle and Marty the other. Now, when they start
> >> pushing, Marty really leans into it and Jim does
> all
> >> he can. Still going at equal speeds, they get it
> up
> >> to pace and continue across the yard. But Jim,
> the
> >> scrawny kid, is really working hard now, while
> Marty
> >> is just cruising. They get the job done. Marty
> >> goes
> >> off to the gym for his workout. But poor Jim is
> >> lying
> >> on the ground moaning. Dad takes Jim to the
> >> hospital
> >> and checks him in for a rewind.
> >>
> >> Get my meaning?
> >>
> >> Jeff M
> >>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:56:53 -0700
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] PFC 30 Timer Position Help
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Can anyone tell me where the pointer is on the timer trim pot? The
pot is slotted and one end of the slot is slightly larger than the
other- is that the pointer? There is also a very small black dot on
the pot- not sure if that is the pointer. I've tried to find the "0"
position and I can't seem to do so.
Mark
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:24:29 -0800
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC 30 Timer Position Help
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
My PFC20 has a slot in the pot but there is an arrow pointer at 90 degrees to
the slot. The pot is labled with letters A through J or K or something. A
would be the "zero" time and they go up in 15 minute increments. I just set
mine for a shorter timeout this morning and I noticed I backed up too far an
the blue timer light cam on solid when I hit "zero" time.
If the dot is at 90 degrees to the slot I would say that is the indicator. Or
you could set it up for time out and back it down to the left until the blue
LED comes on and call that zero, and go up 15 minutes per click to your desired
setting. Or you could wait until Rich responds and sets us all straight.
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:59 am
Subject: [EVDL] PFC 30 Timer Position Help
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Can anyone tell me where the pointer is on the timer trim pot? The
> pot is slotted and one end of the slot is slightly larger than the
> other- is that the pointer? There is also a very small black dot on
>
> the pot- not sure if that is the pointer. I've tried to find the
> "0"
> position and I can't seem to do so.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:25:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] twin, different motors?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hey Jeff
Here's the link to the NetGain motors.
http://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html
FWIW I did just read a news letter they put out
suggesting that they don't recommend using dual 9's
direct drive for dailies as the motors like the 2500
to 3500 RPM range where the fan can keep temps in
check. To much stop and go city driving may overheat
them. If you can keep the motors above 2000 RPM's
most the time you're golden. If you like to creep and
squeeze EVery last amp you might find you're actually
frying your motors. Just wanted to get that out to
those who might consider going direct drive for daily
driving. Blower cooling can increase the duty cycle,
to what exstent I'm sure varies.
BTW you had "me" at wheelbarrow, LMAO! 8^)
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey Marty,
>
> Pushing the wheelbarrow over to the side, I'll give
> you a couple of my impressions.
>
> First off I do not have the motor curves you refer
> to.
> Please send them and I'll look them over. But as
> for now, there are many different designs possible
> for
> the two different motors. Just how they would
> interact depends a lot on the particular design of
> each.
>
> You mention "having a good torque over wider RPM
> range, like an AC motor." I have done both, DC and
> AC, motors. When you push an AC motor to its
> limits,
> the resultant speed/torque map shape closely
> resembles
> that of a series wound DC motor. At the higher
> frequencies (RPM) with the AC motor, you end up
> field
> weakening (or reducing the volts/hertz), so you lose
> torque. On the other end, the AC motor (induction)
> will have a torque limit (breakdown) and the DC
> motor
> a controller current limit. The shape of the
> speed/torque maps are about the same, just that the
> AC
> motor is higher speed/less torque that the DC. But
> with proper gearing, they become nearly equal, some
> torque advantage to the DC.
>
> So, I guess I have to question your motivation here.
>
> What you have proposed, in my opinion, will work.
> But, again in my opinion, is likely to less
> effective
> than two equal motors. That is for a given total
> mass
> of iron and copper, two equal motors will give you
> better performance and thermal suitability than two
> different sized motors.
>
> I realize that you have to work with what is
> available, but if your goal is to shape the
> speed/torque curve to suit a particular need, this
> can
> be done by altering design in a single motor. Or by
> the control method of the motor. A simple method
> comes to mind when you say "counteracting a big
> motor's tendency to go flat as RPM rises because of
> back EMF limiting current". Switch in a field
> weakening resistor.
>
> Another point, you say "As RPM rises, the current,
> and
> heat, migrates to the small motor because of lower
> back EMF". Now, both motors have the same RPM.
> Both
> have the same applied voltage. Why do you think the
> Eg is less in the small motor? That is saying that
> the equivalent motor resistance times the current in
> the small motor is larger than in the big motor. It
> might be. Might not be. The motor currents are not
> necessarily equal. And their resistance is unlikely
> equal.
>
> But, I encourage you to pursue this. You might come
> up with something to work well for your application.
>
> Certainly, plotting out the motor curves and summing
> the torques vs RPM will give you a good look.
>
> I guess I just worry about the little guy going
> under
> the knife for a rewind.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Jeff
>
>
> --- Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I am yet unconvinced. NetGain lists red line for
> > all their motors at the
> > same RPM, so I'm not worried about overrevving the
> > bigger motor. It's not
> > about total torque produced over a narrow band,
> it's
> > about having good
> > torque over a wider RPM range, like an AC motor
> with
> > lower cost. The curves
> > show that at low RPM, the big motor dominates, but
> > as RPM goes up, a smaller
> > motor produces more torque than a big one unless
> the
> > pack voltage is pretty
> > high. Just look at the torque and horsepower
> curves
> > for the motors for
> > voltages of 144 or less. Big motors (11" or
> bigger)
> > crap out below 3000
> > RPM, small ones then out pull them to 5500. The
> sum
> > of the two might be
> > interesting. I need to draw some composite curves
> > before I rule the idea
> > out. The combination wouldn't produce more peak
> > power at the point the
> > controller is just coming out of current limiting,
> > because that's determined
> > mostly by the battery and controller capabilities
> > anyway, not the motor, but
> > I really think it might provide decent power over
> a
> > wider RPM range,
> > counteracting a big motor's tendency to go flat as
> > RPM rises because of back
> > EMF limiting current, which might benefit
> > eliminating the trans. Our
> > problem with running without a trans is that the
> > controller current limit
> > limits power at low RPM when current is high, and
> > the pack voltage limits
> > power at higher RPM. I think that with two
> > different size motors in
> > parallel, the big one would automatically dominate
> > at low RPM, and as RPM
> > rises, the smaller one would take over. I suspect
> > it would act a little
> > like a CVT in terms of matching battery capability
> > to road speed. The
> > motors would have to stay electrically in
> parallel,
> > or the power would
> > always go to the less capable motor instead.
> >
> > Jim is absolutely correct on one point, that the
> > smaller motor could easily
> > be overworked. As RPM rises, the current, and
> heat,
> > migrates to the small
> > motor because of lower back EMF, so the small
> motor
> > would have to have
> > enough capacity to do most of the work at higher
> > RPM. This wouldn't be a
> > setup for Bonneville speed record attempts or
> > highway speed mountain driving
> > without a trans. Here in Illinois? Maybe.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> > <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] twin, different motors?
> >
> >
> > > Hey Jeff
> > >
> > > I couldn't have said it better 8^) BTW I'm not
> > > scrawny I consider it more like being bulk
> > challenged
> > > 8^o
> > >
> > > I will say some of those here are not overly
> > concerned
> > > about having to warranty a motor 8^P
> > >
> > > Anyway I feel the wheelbarrow stories help
> people
> > to
> > > see how things work duty cycle wise. Maybe we
> > should
> > > write a wheelbarrows guide to motor usage, LMAO.
> > >
> > > Had fun
> > > Cya
> > > Jim Husted
> > > Hi-Torque Electric
> > > --- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hey Marty,
> > >>
> > >> Instead of talking volts and amps, I'll try it
> > like
> > >> some other guys explain stuff.
> > >>
> > >> Say Dad has a big pile of dirt in the yard he
> > needs
> > >> moved. He gets his twin sons, Bill and Ted,
> out
> > >> there
> > >> to move half of it. But he has just one
>
=== message truncated ===
____________________________________________________________________________________
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play
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http://sims.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:16:58 +0300
From: jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Remember the Smart copy..
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Hi all.
Just today I had a funny EVent with the ah-so-horrible-smart-copy we
spotted from ebay some time ago.
I was meeting one quite big gov owned Chinese company interested in EVs.
I had chance to have a brief visit in their R&D facilities. I saw few
small EVs and hybrid buses. AND the yellow smart copy !
So now I know the company, owners and the project status. They felt a
bit sore when I pointed my finger on that yellow glassfiber thing. I bet
the general manager was not so happy about the letters from Smart...
From a far distance with bad eye sight it really do look a bit smart
but when going in the "car".. geez... Daimler has nothing to fear.
They are talking about making these cars with small 3 phase AC motor
with lead acids and sell them out with 25000 RMB in China. That's
about.. $3000..
For small vehicle that sits two (almost) and has enough space in back
for groceries (if not that hungry) it was looking better every minute in
it. It was a proto so it was not looking finished. Paint job was done
with haste. But at least they were not even plannig a hybridize it. Good
move. Pure BEV!
BUT they will to make affordable EVs for EVeryone is here. Company has
few billion overturn (RMB) and resources.
Main business for them is to make permanent magnet and various types of
industion motors. They have 9 and 12 kW motors off the shelf for EVs.
Also in the show room was a modell of submarine which they have made
motors for.
I will get details a bit later about the smaller motors. Price can be ok
and this could be one source for affordable AC systems.
They are trying hard to learn about EVs and currently they are on about
our early 1990's on tech level. With a little push and resources for QC
there is a chance to help rEVolution.
I had my camera on me but was denied the right to use it. Maybe next time...
I bet they could make 30-40 k pcs of some sort of small EV during next
year. How's the freedomEV coming up :)
-Jukka
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 1, Issue 43
*********************************
