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Today's Topics:

   1. TOTN Future cars. (Lawrence Rhodes)
   2. Re: Driving style (was: I have an EV!!!! (And     some
      questions)) (Hunter Cook)
   3. Re: Zivan vs. others (Roger Stockton)
   4. Re: Modified K&W BC-20 questions  (primary input leads)
      (Roland Wiench)
   5. Conversion of alternators to AC motors - HowTO-Manual
      (Michael Barkley)
   6. FireFly Batteries (Jeff Mccabe)
   7. Re: LED Taillights - more info (Kent Forschmiedt)
   8. Re: 2SSIC Race Report Sep 23 (Michael T Kadie)


Message: 1
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:22:59 -0700
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] TOTN Future cars.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,    "SFEVA"
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"


Message: 2
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:24:13 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Driving style (was: I have an EV!!!! (And   some
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <>
Content-Type: text/plain

Thanks Rush, that's a great idea.

On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 22:31 -0700, Rush wrote:
> Richard wrote -
> > My little Beetle doesn't have much more room for gauges. I'm probably 
> > going to just move the ammeter to the motor.
> Take a lesson from Dennis's S10, use one gauge for 2 measurements, one from 
> the battery and one from the motor, all you need is a 2nd shunt and a switch 
> to change between the 2 shunts.
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see


Message: 3
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:38:16 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Victor Tikhonov wrote: 

> I wonder then now BRUSA manages to maintain excellent reputation
> while having open charger design (their main customers are 
> OEMs as well).

I also think that Brusa makes an excellent charger, however, I do not
believe they sell anything like the volume Zivan or Delta-Q does, nor do
they sell to the same markets.

There is a huge difference between what is acceptable for an OEM
building a handful of electric busses (for instance), that will only
ever be serviced by trained technicians and one who ships (and
warrantees) tens of thousands of floor sweepers (for instance) each
year, which may be placed in the hands of users with little or no

Brusa builds chargers for a completely different market than do Zivan or

> I suppose every user realizes that the charger is just a hardware
> following charging knowledge/skill of the person putting it in
> service. If charger follows precisely what it is told to do
> day in and day out without problems, it is very good charger.
> It can be setup to keep ruining batteries left and right, this
> doesn't make it bad charger AND does not reflect on the
> manufacturer's reputation precisely for the reason that it is open.
> Meaning *any* problem with battery then is naturally user's 
> programming error, not "executing hardware" manufacturer's problem.

Yes, this is a very logical view.  Unfortunately, customers and end
users are not always logical, particularly when their batteries have
failed and they would rather someone else pay the replacement costs. ;^>

The reality for high-volume OEMs of battery-powered equipment is that
they sell and warrant their equipment and its batteries.  The battery
manufacturer in turn warrants the batteries to the OEM.  These
warranties are only possible if the charger can be counted on to perform
in the same way as it did when evaluated and approved by both the
battery manufacturer and equipment OEM.

> We're not debating policies though, we discuss pure hardware:
> If you see BRUSA and Zivan, say, on ebay for the same price
> (same power) which one would you buy for your future EV with
> unknown yet battery? That is value for the customer and I
> think mainly *thus* company reputation.

When I can buy a BRUSA for the price of a Zivan, I will buy a BRUSA.
Not just because of the user programmability; the BRUSA has several
other features that make it more desirable (PFC, wide-range input,
sealed construction, etc.).  OF course, I wouldn't actually buy a Zivan
anyway; I would continue using my Delta-Q chargers ;^>




Message: 4
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:40:25 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions  (primary input
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions

> Roland-
> Very interesting history there...basically just shows that for at least
> the last 30 years you've been a lot harder core than me. Not that any
> more proof was necessary ;-)
> My batteries do not look "super clean." I suppose it's time I tested for
> leakage. But the first thing on my mind today is what to do about my
> burned up primary input connections on the boost transformer.
> Thanks again for all your help,
> Hunter

Hello Hunter,

If the primary input leads go's directly into the transformer windings and 
the insulation is brittle or gone, you could remove the transformer and take 
it to a motor shop.  It may be as simple as re-enameling the core, if the 
transformer test out ok.

If the transformer is a one winding core, then they have a winding machine 
that counts the number of windings as it is remove from  the core, and than 
winds new wire on the core.  Takes less than 30 minutes to do.

If the leads terminate to a bolt in transformer tab, then you can replace 
these leads with some good high temperature motor leads, that I normally get 
from a motor shop. This type of wire is fine multi strand wire.  A No 10 AWG 
may be 52 strand with a 105 C rating or more.

Use a non-insulated solid wire terminal and heat shrink.  Sometimes, I had 
transformers or motor leads insulation burn off, and I was able to insulated 
with a 3M high temperature glass tape by wrapping the wire twice half 
lapping the tape.  This makes four layers.

If the lead wire has no terminal points and the copper wire itself looks 
brittle, sometimes I could cut the wires leaving about 1 inch from the 
windings and use a non-insulated solid wire inline splice to a flexible 
motor lead wire and heat shrink and glass wrap that connection.

I also spray all these transformer connections with motor enamel spray you 
can also get from a motor shop.  Its not the bake on type.

If you ever brake down a DC brush type motor, which I do about every ten 
years, for cleaning, inspecting or replacing the brushes, I use this spray 
on motor enamel to recoat all the field windings, the front of the 
commentator down to the motor shaft and the motor shaft up to the bearing 

When a motor is brand new and never been run, I record the ohm values of the 
motor terminals to the motor frame which should read over 20 meg ohms.  The 
commentator windings to the field windings (with the jumpers remove, should 
also read over 20 meg ohms.

As time goes on, the brush dust inside the motor will increase the 
conductance and it may get down to 50 k ohms or less which you may get arc 
over.  The its time to clean the motor.  Enameling these areas on the 
commentator and motor shaft has increase resistance which allow the motor to 
go over 15 years with no brush replacements.



Message: 5
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:50:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Conversion of alternators to AC motors - HowTO-Manual
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 Anyone read, and or done so, with this DIY book:

M. Barkley


Message: 6
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] FireFly Batteries
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Group31 batteries, cool!


Message: 7
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:54:48 -0700
From: "Kent Forschmiedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED Taillights - more info
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Perhaps I should have said, " an LED lamp assembly." They come
with a resistor or power supply so it acts very similar to a constant
resistive load ;)

 - kent

On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:15:38 -0400, "Martin Klingensmith"
> Sorry to nit-pick, but surely an LED is a nonlinear diode junction that 
> requires a constant current supply. I think you meant to say that the 
> LED load does not change.
> -
> Martin K
> Kent Forschmiedt wrote:
> > Yes, with a constant resistive load like an LED, a simple series
> > resistor is all you need.
> >
> > You want to deliver 120mA, and you want to drop 36V across your
> > resistor, leaving the other 12V for the light. Ohm's law says E/I = R,
> > so 36/.120 = 300. That resistor has to dissipate the waste heat,
> > expressed as P = E*I, or 36 * .12 = 4.32 Watts. A 10 Watt ceramic or
> > cement resistor will do nicely - the first one on this page is $.55 ea:
> >
> >
> >
> >  - kent
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:24:38 -0700 (PDT), "dale henderson"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> >   
> >> is there an simple [non EE degree] solution to reduce
> >> 48 volts to 12 volt to power a 120ma led break light? 
> >>
> >>     
> >
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see


Message: 8
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:51:14 -0700
From: "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2SSIC Race Report Sep 23
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Oh, yeah I guess times and MPH would be good.  So when I did a good burn out
I was doing 7.8x seconds and 86-88 mph in the 1/8 mile.  And when I didn't
do a long burn or after the 3rd run without recharging 7.9x and 84 mph

And I should not say the pack gave out, the pack was fine, it has just
dropped below my conservative shut off voltage of 2 volts / cell causing the
zilla to disengage (on purpose).  Thanks for that Bill, I don't want to be

And I've got the packs set up so that they cool down really quick.  Probably
too quick, by the time I can pickup my slip and get back into line they are

Thanks Bill for reminding me about what people might actually want to hear


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:24 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2SSIC Race Report Sep 23

What sort of ETs and MPH did you run?

Put a temperature probe on the battery pack to be sure you are not getting
too hot and damaging the cells. You don't want to start a race at over 75 C.
You also don't want to stay at high temperature from very long as the cells
age rapidly when they are hot.

Also, it is not a good idea to run the pack down to near 100% DOD. At this
point, it is easy to reverse cells and this can do damage to them. If you
top up between runs, you won't risk reversing cells.

Bill Dube'

At 09:47 AM 10/3/2007, you wrote:
>Got Rained out (again, this time in SAN DIEGO) the 21, but 23 was GOOD
>Well it was great fun and I beat a lot of cars.
>The work on the brake was brilliant, no problems slowing down.  I 
>decided that I didn't want to bother with the wheelie bars though so I 
>kept the power at 65%.
>I found out that I can get approximate 5 run's in before I need to 
>recharge the batteries (they gave out in the 6th run).  I lost a little 
>over 2/10's before they gave out, but still a thrill ride.
>I also found out that I need to do a longer burnout than I thought; not 
>to warm up the tires, but the batteries.  After a longer burnout I 
>launch harder and shave almost 1/10 second off my time.  This means 
>that to really go hard I either need to heat up my batteries, or more
power, or both.
>Still a whole lot of fun.
>Oh and while I was working on the lights I got back to back .00 
>reaction times (.005 and .008) whee!
>For subscription options, see


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End of EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 11

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