I have a preference for Libera because it seems like the logical place to land along with the other Free/Open Source Software projects that have already done so, including Code4Lib. I don't have much experience with OFTC so I don't have a strong opinion for or against it.
On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 1:19 PM Jason Stephenson <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, all. > > I want to add that I, like Dan, am not too concerned about explicit > values statements. I don't think they matter for much. Actions speak > louder than words. > > Jason Stephenson > > On 5/28/21 9:39 AM, Dan Wells wrote: > > I think the Fraggles were right; humans are properly understood as silly > > creatures. > > > > For my part, I do not see avoiding Libera.chat as "distance for > > distance's sake". It is recognizing that both sides of this split are > > hyperventilating about something of very small significance, that being > > IRC infrastructure. I've never given it 2 minutes of thought before > > this, and may not ever again. It just doesn't matter that much. Which > > network has the best chance of dissolving back into the background > > noise? That's all I want. > > > > Concerning who has the best "explicit values statement", again I say, > > small potatoes. Has OFTC, or any of the other choices, ever shown any > > evidence of being discriminatory? What would that even mean in the > > context of an IRC host? It is a moot point, and it need not be elevated > > into some issue of prime importance. Is this what life has been reduced > > to? Is this as good as it gets? > > > > Dan > > > > > > Daniel Wells > > Head of Technology Services > > Hekman Library, Calvin University > > 616.526.7133 > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* Evergreen-general > > <[email protected]> on behalf of Mike > > Rylander <[email protected]> > > *Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2021 8:36 AM > > *To:* Evergreen Discussion Group < > [email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC > network? > > I want to echo what Jason says entirely in his position and reasoning. > > Either would be fine, but libera.chat has some benefits, both > > technical-adjacent and non-technical, IMO. > > > > I would also add that I pretty strongly disagree with the argument > > that we should distance ourselves for distance's stake, or to avoid > > the appearance of taking sides. This isn't analogous to a divorce > > where we are the children, it's a choice we're making for our project > > WRT infrastructure and, all else being equal, the explicitly stated > > values of the competing options should be weighed in that decision. > > > > I appreciate libera.chat's more explicit values statement embodied in > > the anti-discrimination policy and believe that aligns with the values > > of the Evergreen project. That said, OFTC is a fine choice as well, > > and they have taken the recent step of pushing the "private" flag to > > all users, forcing users to opt out of some identity-masking features > > rather than opt in, which is a good step, I think. > > > > -- > > Mike Rylander > > Research and Development Manager > > Equinox Open Library Initiative > > 1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457) > > work: [email protected] > > personal: [email protected] > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=> > > > > > > > On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:29 PM Jason Boyer <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> Given the last week or so I don’t think there’s any question about > whether we should move, only where we should land. > >> > >> I wouldn’t be upset either way but I lean toward libera.chat for a few > reasons: > >> 1. Since it is basically all the same staff as freenode they’re used to > managing a large network > >> 2. With the (very recent) addition of a web interface they’re basically > at feature parity with what we expect > >> 3. I like the fact that they have anti-discrimination policies as Galen > mentioned, and having gone through this ordeal I suspect their management > policies will be quite robust. > >> 4. Less importantly but still notable, several other FOSS projects have > already officially moved there, such as Ansible, PostgreSQL, emacs, ZNC, > Code4Lib, and I’m sure several others. Most of these I’ve observed > incidentally or saw mentioned elsewhere; I suspect a number of large > projects are already represented there > > should one actually search them out. > >> > >> Jason > >> > >> -- > >> Jason Boyer > >> Senior System Administrator > >> Equinox Open Library Initiative > >> [email protected] > >> +1 (877) Open-ILS (673-6457) > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=> > > > > >> > >> On May 26, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Galen Charlton <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> The #evergreen IRC channel has been hosted on the Freenode network for > years. However, recently 14 staff members at Freenode have quit in response > to a dispute over ownership of the network [1], [2]. > >> > >> A number of open source and other communities, including Code4Lib, have > migrated to other IRC networks such as Libera.Chat (which was founded by > the departed Freenode staff members) and OFTC (which has been around for > years and hosts, among other groups, #koha). However, Freenode has > apparently started locking channels that > > mentioned a move away to Libera in their channel topics. [3] > >> > >> I believe that the current proprietors of Freenode are actively > undermining Freenode as a place for open source communities to discuss > their work without interference, though it is not clear to me why they find > commercial or other value in doing so. Consequently, I suggest that we > consider a move to either Libera.Chat or OFTC. > > #evergreen channels currently do exist on both networks. > >> > >> Here are some pros and cons I see: > >> > >> Libera.Chat > >> --------------- > >> Pro: Run by the same people who have kept Freenode running smoothly for > over a decade. Has a policy against discrimination based on faith, > ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or > age. [4] > >> Con: Doesn't offer a built-in web client, although it can be used with > other web IRC services. > >> > >> OFTC > >> ------- > >> Pro: Has been successfully used by the Koha community for years. Comes > with a built-in web chat client. > >> Con: Their policy does not appear to have active anti-discrimination > clauses. [5] > >> > >> I don't believe that this is a super-urgent issue - please enjoy the > Evergreen Conference this week! - but I would like to solicit opinions on > whether to leave Freenode and, if so, whether to move to OFTC or > Libera.Chat. Discussion about the IRC network is taking place on the > Freenode #evergreen IRC channel as well. > >> > >> I want to acknowledge that a discussion of alternatives to IRC would be > valid, but I suggest that if anybody wants to take that up, that it be done > in parallel to the more limited question about moving #evergreen. > >> > >> [1] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=> > > > > >> [2] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=> > > > > >> [3] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=> > > > > >> [4] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=> > > > > >> [5] > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=> > > > > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Galen > >> -- > >> Galen Charlton > >> Implementation and IT Manager > >> Equinox Open Library Initiative > >> [email protected] > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=> > > > > >> phone: 877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457) > >> direct: 770-709-5581 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> 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