From: Bruno Marchal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Lob + New Views On Mind-Body Connection Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:19:42 +0200
A long time ago (1987), a french logician (a student at that time), Philippe Balbiani, who did attend a talk I made on the logic of self-reference (G) in Toulouse send me a letter where he proposes informally to interpret the Lobian formula (that is B(Bp->p)->Bp) as a form of closure for the french self-persuading strategy known as "la méthode Coué" (la methode Coue)). I must confess I was not really convinced. I thought this would be somehow to beautiful to be true. My mind will slightly evolve on that question when I will understand, in part through Smullyan's FU (Forever Undecided) that the Lob formula does indeed capture, at least formally, a form of self-fulfilling nature of machine's belief. The Lob formula does indeed say that if a machine believes Bp->p for some proposition p, then the machine will believe p. This is very astonishing, and still quite mysterious to me. My thesis has never been based directly on Lob formula, except that through Solovay's theorem Lob formula formalize the entire discourse of the self-referentially correct machine. Then recently, when I was just explaining the Lob formula in my Amsterdam paper, John Mikes send me the message below which shows experimental evidence on the working of the placebo effect (quite similar to the methode Coue). I have download many papers on the placebo and eventually conclude that Lob formula could indeed provide a formal explanation of the working of that placebo phenomenon. This makes reality still more "psychological" like if the universe(s) was the product of a form of wishful thinking! It also vindicates in a deeper way the similarity between the Grand-Mother psychology and the Lobian machine psychology. Thanks to John. With the Knight Knaves Island Lob's theorem is not difficult to explain and we can go back to that (but apparently some KK posts are missing in the archive, and I don't know how to proceed, and I will think the how and why for awhile). A lot of physicians say the placebo effect is *subversive* with respect to traditional science. What is clear is that it forces even the therapist to address (at least) the mind body relation, and this in some novel way (with respect to Aristotle).
John Mikes wrote:
Bruno, your topic, maybe interesting novelty (I doubt). IMO the brain can encode data in el-chem perception, no indication so far how the qualia-gap is transcended into thought context. Not even in picture/music/taste apperceptions. The neuronal brain is a TOOL and the ongoing reductionist research stops at phenomenology of "the tool does it so the tool does it all". (Philosophy of "kill the messenger").
I hold the complexity to which "human" belongs unseparable in its functions unless one is a faithful dualist with a soul. Even then: does the 'soul' think?
John ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Robert Karl Stonjek To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>A Group MindBrain Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: [Mind and Brain] Article: New Views On Mind-Body Connection
New Views On Mind-Body Connection
Studies into placebo effect and empathy suggest how the brain encodes subjective experience | <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>By Eugene Russo
Courtesy of Fabrizio Benedetti
captionarrow.gif UNPRECEDENTED ACCESS: During a deep brain stimulation clinical trial, researchers detected elements of the placebo effect. The pre-placebo neuron was recorded from the left subthalamic nucleus as a control. The post-placebo neuron was recorded from the right subthalamic nucleus. Other neurons demonstrated a similiar decrease in activity.
Revealing the complexities of the pain experience may offer a window into the mind-body interaction. Several recent studies into the placebo effect, human empathy, and their apparent interconnectedness are providing insight into the human subjective experience.
Such investigations, says Jon-Kar Zubieta, associate professor in psychiatry and radiology at the University of Michigan, help scientists understand the intersection of physical and emotional states. "The placebo effect gets at the core of how individuals react and modulate environmental events, whether positive or negative in nature," he says. If harnessed, the regulatory mechanisms involved could point to better treatments for pain, depression, and stress.
In earlier work, University of Turin physiology professor Fabrizio Benedetti showed that administering an opioid-blocking drug could reverse the psychological placebo effect.1 "People started believing there was something real there," says Columbia University assistant professor Tor Wager, lead author of a recent placebo effect study on functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) .
Wager's group took a different tack, uncovering regions of the brain that showed decreased activity during the placebo effect.2 In one trial, they told subjects that they were administering a powerful analgesic cream. In another, the subjects received the same cream but were told it has no effect. When subjects were experiencing the placebo effect, a subset of known pain-sensitive brain regions showed a signal reduction of 20% to 25%
In a subsequent study, Benedetti's group observed patterns of neuronal firing, not visible via neuroimaging, that corresponded with Wager's findings.3 His group performed single-neuron recording in patients with Parkinson disease who had been administered a sham treatment.
Read the rest at The Scientist <http://www.the-scientist.com/yr2004/aug/research2_040802.html>http://www.the-scientist.com/yr2004/aug/research2_040802.html
Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek
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