Quentin Anciaux wrote:
> Le Wednesday 30 Août 2006 21:26, 1Z a écrit :
> > Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > > Peter Jones writes:
> > > > > > > Saying that there is a material substrate which has certain
> > > > > > > properties is just a working assumption to facilitate thinking
> > > > > > > about the real world. It may turn out that if we dig into quarks
> > > > > > > very deeply there is nothing "substantial" there at all, but
> > > > > > > solid matter will still be solid matter, because it is defined by
> > > > > > > its properties, not by some mysterious raw physical substrate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not using the Bare Substrate to explian "solidity", which is
> > > > > > as you say
> > > > > > a matter of properties/behaviour.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am using it to explain contingent existence, and (A series) time.
> > > > >
> > > > > We could say that matter is that which feels solid, reflects light,
> > > > > distorts spacetime etc. and leave it at that.
> > > >
> > > > However, that is mere behaviour. I need a defiition
> > > > which digs deeper than behaviour,and I have one.
> > >
> > > All I see is mere behaviour.
> >
> > All you see is phenomena in your own mimd, says the solipsist..
>
> "There is no other solipsist than me" he would say... As the solipsist is the
> only real... but it is a disgression and as usual you answer by question or
> opinion which are not yours.

I am making the point that if you apply the "I don't believe in a
anything
I can't see" principle *consistently*, you don't just abandon matter,
you also abandon Other Minds.

> > >When I say that something is as real as this desk in front of me, I am
> > > saying that it is as real as the mere mere behaviour in front of me
> >
> > How do you know it is really in front of you ?
>
> This is still a language babeling... define real (for you) then we can
> discuss... But I'll try to do it for you.


> What is real is what is material. Materiality define what is real... Don't
> forget to byte the snake.

What is real is what Quentin can see..what Quentin can see is real...
two can play at the snake-biting game.

> > > - as opposed to the desk in my
> > > dreams, which lacks such behaviour. Do you think we really disagree about
> > > desks? If it looks like a desk, feels like a desk etc., then it's a desk.
> > > It doesn't add anything to say that it also contains "essence of real
> > > desk" to distinguish it from dream desks, because dream desks differ from
> > > real desks in other ways.
> >
> > Well, what is the difference ? How do you escape solipsism without
> > embracing materialism ?
>
> How do you escape the circle without leaving materialism ?


What you have is a choice of circles.

> Quentin


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