Tom Caylor wrote:
> On Feb 6, 10:25 pm, Brent Meeker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Tom Caylor wrote:
>>> I'm saying that there is no meaning at all if there is no ultimate
>> So you say. I see no reason to believe it.
>>> Again, I haven't just pulled this out of thin air. If you
>>> really read the modern thinkers and writers, that is what they were
>>> saying. Hegel, Kierkegaard, Wittgenstein, Russell, Camus, Sartre,
>>> Dostoyevsky, Orwell, Godel, Monod, Lewis, Schaeffer...
>> I don't think you've read these writers. Russell, Camus, and Sartre were
>> definitely advocates of each person providing their own purpose.
>> Incidentally they hardly qualify as "modern" anymore.
> They each came to the edge of the cliff, but they responded in
> different ways. Some took the "leap of faith" (!) to say that somehow
> providing our own purpose is legitimate. Bertrand Russell said this
> was "incredible", but he believed it anyway. We are in the post-
> modern age now.
>>> I hope that
>>> people who are trying to be on the cutting edge of "theories of
>>> everything" will go back and pick up from where these thinkers left
>>> off. Not just stand on the shoulders of the physics giants, but also
>>> the philosophy (and spiritual!) giants. I know that the modern
>>> philosophy road is depressing and unlivable. They bring us to the
>>> edge of the cliff. It was depressing for people like the young genius
>>> Nick Drake who was found dead on his bed in his 20's after a drug
>>> overdose, with Camus' Myth of Sysiphus beside him. But we have to
>>> face the reality of where the modern age has brought us in order to
>>> find the answer before we all exterminate ourselves. ...taking the
>>> "leap of faith" that it is bad to exterminate ourselves.
>> It's not modern existential angst that threatens our existence. It's the
>> religious zealotry of worshippers of the sky god - in Iran, Pakistan, and
>> the bible belt.
> Solshenitzyn said that the line between good and evil does not run
> between cultures, beliefs, etc. but right down the center of every
> human being. (Don't know if I remembered the quote exactly.)
>>> In light of
>>> modern thought, your argument about the sky god society begs the
>>> question of meaning by assuming that they *shouldn't* "be miserable
>>> and kill each other". This is not a dilemma to pass over lightly. I
>>> believe it is at the heart of the matter for where mankind is at
>>> today, on the brink of something great or terrible. Or is it REALLY
>>> all just meaningless? (What would "REALLY" mean in that case? ;)
>> Not to me it isn't. I'm all for not exterminating ourselves and I've got
>> grandchildren to prove it.
> Congratulations (honestly).
> However, your having grandchildren shows that you BELIEVE IN not
> exterminating ourselves, but it doesn't PROVE that we SHOULD NOT
> exterminate ourselves.
>>> Isn't that what this Everything stuff is (ultimately ;) all about? We
>>> want to solve the modern schizo dilemma of nature vs. grace and bring
>>> about wholeness.
>> Sounds like a problem invented in the Vatican.
> Modern science has attempted to explain away the reality of what man
> is, both the good and the bad. However, explaining it away doesn't
> eliminate it. Thus the dichotomy.
>>> I'm tired of hearing questions about scientifically
>>> *proving* which god is the right one, as if the question is supposed
>>> to show that it isn't worth it to pursue the answers to the *ultimate*
>>> questions. While we're busy trying to scientifically *prove* which
>>> way to go, or show that you can't scientifically prove which way to go
>>> (which has been done already cf above thinkers), we're gonna walk off
>>> the edge of the cliff. And, pardon my presumptuous risking the danger
>>> of a false belief, but "that wouldn't be very nice."
>> Scientists never "prove" anything; they observe, invent theories, collect
>> evidence, test,... Only mathematicians prove things - and then only
>> relative to axioms they assume.
> I agree.
>> Brent Meeker
>> "It does not matter now that in a million years nothing we do now will
>> --- Thomas Nagel
> We might like to believe Nagel, but it isn't true.
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