Hi, Bruno
you know that I am in a different mindset, yet happy to read your train of
thoughts. I consider a set a limited model of elements (and conclusions
thereof are not applicable to wider domains) - when I read your
"A set can be described in extension or in intension. "in extension" means
that we give all elements of the set, enclosed in accolades."
I was really happy with the next sentence:
"When the set is not to complex (meaning big or infinite), we can use the
"...".  - "
(I missed here the exemption of the 'infinite' *"set*", really a
contradiction, to which the 'set' considerations cannot apply - OR can they?
if you have something on that...) "Many" cannot be infinite (by MY
I loved your words on QM, the (linear) extension of the figment physical
world as described in reductionist physical sciences.
I also cannot wait for something more about your approach on
the "self reference" - the basis of physics? - especially as to
'self' of what (who)? I hope the answer will not be "machine" or comp,
because then I have to continue "and what is that?"
(in more than a utilitarian explanation of what it does). ('it?')
What boils down to my ignorance as to the originating and maintaining to ANY
action we speak about. The 'theos' of a non-assumed and non-supernatural
factor (system?) yet involved in conducting all we just find natural and
You may substitute 'numbers' for such, but so far did not reply (to my
satisfaction at least) WHAT those 'numbers' may be.
Sorry, I am not of the religious kind.
Maybe my error is in 'believeing' that a *REALITY* may exist and 'we' have
only access to part of it. Inventing for our comfort (the D. Bohmian idea)
'numbers' at the human level of pre-Platonian thinking. If 'reality' exists
only by 'comp' or 'consequences' then I may be in a reversed error, due
to brainwashing by in college imprinted  natural sciences - what I try to
exceed yet it still sits there.
Our 'perceived reality' (ColinH) may also provide the numbers.
Now that sounds heretical enough in this thread. Forgive me.
Waiting for the self-reference, (who's?) - with thanks so far

John Mikes

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> Hi Johnathan,
> On 29 Jun 2009, at 17:22, Johnathan Corgan wrote:
> >
> > Bruno,
> >
> > I think you were off to a good start with your planned series of posts
> > about the seven step argument.  I believe your first installment was a
> > discussion of set theory as one of the mathematical preliminaries to
> > the
> > actual argument.
> >
> > I am looking forward to your next installment.
> Well, thanks. I am not sure Kim and Marty are there, but I can provide
> a summary, and recall the motivation.
> Marty, did you come back from holiday? Kim? still interested in
> electronical summer's school on mathematics.
> The goal of the seven step thread is to make clear the seventh step of
> the UDA (Universal Dovetailer Argument). The purpose of the UDA is to
> make clear that the mind-body problem (or the consciousness/reality
> problem, or the first person/third person) problem is reduced, when we
> do the computationalist assumption, to a pure body appearance or
> discourse problem. UDA shows that if we assume the comp. hyp. then we
> have to explain the appearance of matter from machine or number self-
> reference only. The proof is constructive, it shows *how* the laws of
> physics have to be extracted from self-reference.
> Later, much later, I could explain, if everyone is OK with UDA, how we
> can already extract from self-reference the general shape of physics,
> so that we can already refute empirically, or confirm, the comp. hyp.
> And it appears that the empirical quantum mechanics,  currently,
> confirms the comp. hyp. Quantum mechanics confirms the partial
> indetermination of the outcomes of our possible experiences, and the
> "high non booleanity" of the propositions describing those outcomes".
> The object of the "seventh step thread' consists in making the seventh
> step accessible to non mathematicians. So we have to start from zero.
> I have decided to start from elementary "naive" set theory, without
> which we cannot do anything in math. I will avoid all special
> mathematical symbols, and use instead words with capital letters.
> We have not yet done a lot. So I can sum up, with the new "notations".
> Definition. A set is just a "many" considered, when clear enough, as a
> "one". So a set is just a collection of objects, and those objects are
> called the element, or the member, of the set. If some x is an element
> of some set A, we write x BELONGS-TO A, or (x BELONGS-TO A).
> A set can be described in extension or in intension. "in extension"
> means that we give all elements of the set, enclosed in accolades.
> When the set is not to complex (meaning big or infinite), we can use
> the "...". We can give name to a set, to ease or talk about that set,
> like we do all the times in mathematics. Most of the set we will
> consider are set of mathematical object, mainly numbers in the
> beginning, and then set of ... sets.
> Example-exercise:
> 1°) Let A be the set {0, 1, 2, 3}. ("A" is said to be a local name for
> the set {0, 1, 2, 3}. And local means that such a name is used in a
> local context. One paragraph later "A" could designed another, so be
> careful). If "A" names {0, 1, 2, 3}, we will write "A = {0, 1, 2, 3}".
> OK, so with A = {0, 1, 2, 3}. Which of the following propositions are
> true
> 1) the number 2 is a member of A
> 2) the number 12 is a member of A
> 3) the number 12 is not a member of A
> 4) (3 BELONGS-TO A)
> 5) all members of A are numbers
> 6) one element of A is not a number
> 7) A can be defined in intension in the following way A = {x SUCH-THAT
> x is a positive integer little than 4}
> 2°) Same questions with the set A = {0, 1, 2, 3, ... , 61, 62, 63}
> This makes 14 exercises, which should be easy. I intent to keep it
> that way. I continue after I get either answers (correct or wrong), or
> questions.
> Everyone is welcome to participate. Yet, I ask those who are quick to
> respect those who are slow. To be slow in the beginning usually help
> for being deep in the sequel.
> Best,
> Bruno
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >

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