On 08 Sep 2010, at 20:28, Rex Allen wrote:

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 9/7/2010 1:48 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

Having said this your point does not follow, in the sense that even if consciousness supervenes on interactions of particles (non mechanism) this would not prevents consciousness to retroact on the particles, like when a painter moves ink and papers to express his artistic feelings. Another example: we may argue that guns and atomic bombs are produced in part by
human fears.

But then what causes human fears?

Assuming Mechanism (and thus non-physicalism) we could say that "very old" self-referential subroutines "cause" human fear. It is the qualia associated with anything threatening our probability survival.

You could say quarks and electrons cause human fears which then cause
guns and bombs.

Not really. Quarks and electrons can locally play a role in the local and relative implementation of the subroutines above.

OR, you could say quarks and electrons cause human fears *and also
cause* guns and bombs.  Human fears being epiphenomenal and

This does not work because we already known that quark and electron exists relatively to us because our consciousness selects or filters the realities which sustain us consistently. Consciousness is more primitive than quarks and electrons. This is probably not obvious, but follows from the UDA. Consciousness is "just" inference by machine of their own consistency.

How could you tell which option was correct?

The first one is a bit closer to what we have to deduce from the digital mechanist hypothesis.

Human flesh and guns and bombs all boil down to specific arrangements
of quarks and electrons.  There's no mystery as to how one could lead
to the others.

The mystery is why there should be an experience of fear associated
certain arrangements of quarks and electrons and experiences of
happiness associated with other arrangements and (presumably) no
experience at all associated with yet other arrangements.

The mystery is solved when you understand that consciousness (immaterial) is a necessarily existing inference of machines (immaterial) observing themselves, and that quarks and bombs are their constructs/filtration. Probably the quarks are much common in any Löbian observable (physical) reality, given that they come from quantum phenomena already build by the Löbian machines (infinitely more common in the arithmetical multi-dreams than humans). The only mystery which remains is the qualia of the natural numbers itself, but this one is enough to explain why it is not humanly, nor Löbianly, solvable.

So everything, including a mystery, fit together nicely. And consciousness has a role: that reality-inference speed up the processes deepening our histories. The stability and persistence of observable reality needs that consciousness filtration.



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