On Feb 11, 8:17 pm, Jason <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 11, 1:39 pm, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 10, 3:18 am, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Brent and 1Z,
> > > The paper you referenced says the following:
> > > "No doubt life, as we know it, depends sensitively on the parameters of
> > > our
> > > universe. However, other forms of life might exist under different
> > > conditions."
> > > I agree with that statement. Certainly there are other arrangements of
> > > laws
> > > which would permit life to exist. The question is how often is it, among
> > > all possible structures, that intelligent life is possible? It does not
> > > appear easy. Try inventing your own set of physical laws which if
> > > followed
> > > from the beginning to the end which would permit life to evolve and exist.
> > > It takes a lot of consideration and thought for people to design virtual
> > > realities which support artificial life (alife), even when it is very
> > > simple
> > > compared to the life we know. Consider what is necessary just to support
> > > evolution:
> > > 1. An chemistry rich enough to construct self-replicating machines
> > > 2. The ability for life to reliably encode, read and copy information
> > > (necessary to record results of natural experiments, as DNA does for us)
> > > 3. Unreachable entities (in our case stars) which provide limited
> > > energy/resources at a fixed rate for life forms to compete over during the
> > > course of trillions of generations
> > > 4. This energy source must not easily attainable or duplicated by life (if
> > > fusion were biologically possible life would consume all the potential
> > > energy long before it could evolve intelligence)
> > > 5. No easy shortcut to get an unlimited or infinite amount of energy
> > > (Something like the laws of thermodynamics, otherwise life has no
> > > incentive
> > > to increase in complexity once it discovers such a trick)
> > > 6. Re-usability or resupply of materials used by life (If biological
> > > material or waste can't be broken down to be reused by other life forms
> > > then
> > > such material or resources would run out)
> > > 7. Long term stability of environment and constancy of physical laws,
> > > otherwise life would be quickly wiped out or the validity of the
> > > information
> > > recorded from natural experiments becomes invalidated
> > > I think the above rules are necessary not just for life as we know it in
> > > this universe, but life anywhere. Our own universe seems just complex
> > > enough, but no more complex than is necessary, to provide each of these
> > > requirements.
> > It's much *bigger* than necessary.
> I think there are probabilistic reasons for this. Imagine there were
> 3 universes, one with 10 conscious observers in it, one with a 100
> billion observers in it, and one with a Gogol observers in it. If you
> were one of those observers, which one do you think you would find
> yourself in?
I'm me in any unjverse that contain me, however many other people
> > >What do you think the chances are that any random object in
> > > Plato's heaven, or any random Turing machine will support intelligent
> > > life?
> > > 1 in 10, 1 in 1000, 1 in a billion?
> > > I think the universe's apparent Fine-Tuning is controversial only to a few
> > > general types of audiences:
> > > 1. Physicists who believe in a grand theory of everything which will
> > > explain
> > > logically why this universe has to have the physical laws it does, and why
> > > no other physical laws are possible.
> > > 2. Those who consider the idea that there are multiple universes to be
> > > ridiculous or unscientific.
> > > 3. Those who consider it only as a justification for intelligent design
> > > theories.
> > > Fine-tuning is a direct consequence of the anthropic principle once one
> > > assumes multiple universes. Say you were completely agnostic on the
> > > question of there being other universes, but you decided the probability
> > > of
> > > any random universe having those seven necessary properties necessary for
> > > life was 1 in 1000. You must then decide between there being only one
> > > universe (the one you see) and wonder why we were fortunate enough to hit
> > > the 1 in 1000 chance to be alive, or you conclude multiple universes
> > > exist,
> > > and there is no mystery or luck involved. One's confidence that there is
> > > only 1 universe should be roughly proportional to the likelihood that life
> > > exists in any randomly selected possible universe.
> > > That the Anthropic Principle + Mathematical Realism explains the
> > > appearance
> > > of Fine Tuning is just one of its many attractions. Among the other
> > > appeals
> > > of mathematical realism are that it answers some longstanding questions:
> > > Eugene Wigner's "The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of
> > > mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift
> > > which we neither understand nor deserve."
> > > Einstein's "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is
> > > at
> > > all comprehensible."
> > > John Wheeler's "Why these particular equations, not others?"
> > > If mathematical reality is taken as true the appearance of a physical
> > > reality is a direct consequence. If one starts with a physical reality,
> > > however, one
> > > I am curious to know at what point do you consider the items in this
> > > progression to no longer be real and what point you begin to apply the
> > > label
> > > of immaterial or abstract:
> > > 1. The matter and space beyond our cosmological horizon which we can
> > > neither
> > > see nor interact with
> > > 2. Other theorized cosmic inflation events (new big bangs) happening
> > > elsewhere or very far away
> > > 3. Events or people which exist in the distant past
> > > 4. Other branches of the multiverse as postulated by Everett
> > > 5. Other solutions to string theory which define other possible physics
> > > 6. Altogether different physical laws and universes, defined by the
> > > equations completely unlike those of string theory
> > > 7. Universes which exist with simple rules, finite state automata like
> > > John
> > > Conway's game of life
> > > 8. Turing machines executing programs
> > > 9. Mathematical structures defined by equations, such as the Mandelbrot
> > > set
> > > 10. Simpler mathematical structures, spheres, circles, triangles
> > > 11. Integers
> > > If Mathematical objects have an objective reality then what is abstract
> > > vs.
> > > what is physical becomes a matter of perspective. You call this world
> > > physical because it is the abstract mathematical object you find yourself
> > > in, someone in another mathematical object / universe might consider this
> > > one we inhabit to be abstract. I see no value in placing labels of
> > > existence of "physically real" to anything which is possible, but a lot of
> > > value from deciding possible things exist too. It answers many questions
> > > and eliminates the apparent arbitrariness which is required for this to be
> > > the only possible reality. Have scientists discovered any principle or
> > > evidence which suggests this is the only possible universe?
> > Yeah Occam's razor. Maybe falsifiability.
> Occam's razor has to do with simplicity of theories, not elements of
> When it was first discovered that star light had the same
> spectral lines as sun light it was a simpler theory to conclude stars
> were distant suns, despite the fact that it implied the existence of
> untold trillions of other suns and planets. The theory that all
> universes exist is about the simplest possible theory of everything,
> it explains all observations.
Is it falsifiable?
> Including those which trouble single
> universe theories, such as quantum randomness and fine tuning.
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