2012/9/10 benjayk <benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com> > > > > > No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence of the > > > Church > > > Turing thesis. The particular machine at the lowest level has no > > bearing > > > (from the program's perspective). > > If that is true, we can show that CT must be false, because we *can* > > define > > a "meta-program" that has access to (part of) its own hardware (which > > still > > is intuitively computable - we can even implement it on a computer). > > > > It's false, the program *can't* know that the hardware it has access to is > the *real* hardware and not a simulated hardware. The program has only > access to hardware through IO, and it can't tell (as never ever) from that > interface if what's outside is the *real* outside or simulated outside. > <\quote> > Yes that is true. If anything it is true because the hardware is not even > clearly determined at the base level (quantum uncertainty). > I should have expressed myself more accurately and written " "hardware" " > or > "relative 'hardware'". We can define a (meta-)programs that have access to > their "hardware" in the sense of knowing what they are running on relative > to some notion of "hardware". They cannot be emulated using universal > turing > machines
Then it's not a program if it can't run on a universal turing machine. > (in general - in specific instances, where the hardware is fixed on > the right level, they might be). They can be simulated, though, but in this > case the simulation may be incorrect in the given context and we have to > put > it into the right context to see what it is actually emulating (not the > meta-program itself, just its behaviour relative to some other context). > > We can also define an infinite hierarchy of meta-meta-....-programs (n > metas) to show that there is no universal notion of computation at all. > There is always a notion of computation that is more powerful than the > current one, because it can reflect more deeply upon its own "hardware". > > See my post concerning meta-programs for further details. > -- > View this message in context: > http://old.nabble.com/Why-the-Church-Turing-thesis--tp34348236p34413719.html > Sent from the Everything List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.