On 01 Feb 2013, at 18:44, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Good. And I should have said, rather than "I cannot prove that",
instead, "i don't need to prove that any more
than that, as an infant, in fact I trusted my mother."
The error is never in the perception (Firstness) , for that is what
you actually perceive
or feel, the error is always in Secondness, what you make of it. Or as
a lie or deliberate distortion in Thirdness, thta being what you
tell others you
have seen or felt.
Your firstness, if it concerns perception is given in 3p, with comp,
by Bp & Dt & p. It is the 5th hypostases.
I will stick on the most common use of first person and third person.
But as you see we can peobably make sense of Peirce in the comp theory.
So Firstness is always true because it contains no words.
Always true means I think Platonia.
The first person has a link with platonia (truth), but is not platonia.
Secondness can contain an error.
Your secondness is already 3p.
Contingency.
Thirdness can be a lie.
Lie are the proposition of the type Bf, or BBf, etc. But with comp
(and the classical theory of knowledge, so are "dreams", "error" and
"death", curiously enough.
Which may help to explain why I believe Peirce's triad
to be necessary if you want completeness.
No problem. Machines might follow Peirce's intuition. But with
different vocabulary.
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-02-01, 10:38:04
Subject: Re: Is there an aether ?
On 30 Jan 2013, at 11:55, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Theology is an objective, derivative. human pursuit based on reason,
and reason, acccording to my Lutheran beliefs,
being objective (3p), cannot be free of error.
OK.
Only the consciousness root of our subjectivity is undoubtable and
cannot been made wrong.
The objective is what is doubtable, and indeed science progresses by
refuting the objective theories.
Only faith (1p),
being doubly subjective (guided by the HS), cannot be free of error.
OK. But not all the subjective. On some point the subjective can be
wrong too.
Obviously I cannot prove that.
Comp can prove that for all ideally correct machines, there are true
but non expressible fact. And also that there are true, expressible,
but non justifiable facts. Machine's subjectivity is very rich and
variate.
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-27, 06:56:38
Subject: Re: Is there an aether ?
Hi Roger,
On 25 Jan 2013, at 15:42, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Separated, yes. But accesible to all IMHO.
But then why separate them? Why not allowing seriousness in
theology. To ease our fear of death? That's the local goal, and it
makes sense locally, but it leads to more problems, especially if
everyone can access it: no need of authoritative argument. The
bible is a venerable human text, but like all prose, it does not
need literal interpretation, or we get insane, and let fight
between big-enders and small-enders (cf Voltaire).
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-24, 15:07:59
Subject: Re: Is there an aether ?
On 24 Jan 2013, at 09:48, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal and all--
Rather than living in such a dreary scientific world,
yhe point is to escape from the world of science
into the world of Mind.
Those worlds are not necessarily separated.
Bruno
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-23, 11:07:09
Subject: Re: Is there an aether ?
On 22 Jan 2013, at 22:52, John Mikes wrote:
Richard:
and what is - NOT - an illusion? are you? or me?
we have no way to ascertain existence and qualia, we just THINK.
Our science is based on SOME info we don't know exactly, not
even if it is like we think it is. We calculate in our human
logic (stupidity would be more accurate) and then comes a newer
enlightenment and we change it all. Brent wrote a nice list of
such changes lately. I use the classic Flat Earth.
But we live happily ever after and before (not knowing if TIME
does indeed exist?). And some of us get Nobel prizes. Congrats.
So: happy illusions!
Science is only that. The courage to be stupid, and the hope that
this might help to be a little bit less stupid tomorrow.
But being wrong is, in fact, not really like being stupid. The
real stupidity is what persists. It is staying wrong despite
evidences. This happens often when people try to measure/judge
intelligence and stupidity, especially their own, which makes no
sense. We can evaluate special competence, but we can't evaluate
intelligence.
Bruno
John Mikes
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Richard Ruquist <yann...@gmail.com
> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 3:49:09 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Craig Weinberg
<whats...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > That doesn't have anything to do with your straw man of my
position. I
>> > have
>> > never once said that existence is contingent upon human
consciousness. I
>> > state again and again that it is experience itself - the
capacity for
>> > sensory-motor participation which is the progenitor of all
possible
>> > forms of
>> > 'existence'. Something 'being' means that there is an
experience,
>> > otherwise
>> > there is no possibility of anything ever coming into being.
>>
>> However, in a static Block MWI Universe there is no need for
time or
>> consciousness or experience.
>
>
> Then in what sense does it 'exist'?
It must be an illusion. Either that or MWI is an illusion. Doesn't
Bruno say that matter is a dream or illusion? Richard
>
>>
>> That seems to be Bruno's multiverse.
>> Although I wonder if his 1p perspective is equivalent to your
>> motor-sensory experience in order to make time,& consciousness
>> necessary?
>> Richard
>
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