On Thursday, April 4, 2013 12:55:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:32 AM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
> There are, of course, undiscovered scientific facts. If scientists did not 
>>> believe that they would give up science. But Craig is not saying that there 
>>> are processes inside cells that are controlled by as yet undiscovered 
>>> physical effects. What he is saying is that if I decide to move my arm the 
>>> arm will move not due to the well-studied sequence of neurological events, 
>>> but "spontaneously", due to my will.
>> UGH. No. I say that if I move my arm, the arm will move because I AM 
>> whatever sequence of events on whatever level - molecular, biochemical, 
>> physiological, whether well-studied or not. You may not be able to 
>> understand that what I intend is not to squeeze myself into biology, or to 
>> magically replace biology, but to present that the entirety of the physics 
>> of my body intersects with the entirety of the physics of my experience. 
>> The two aesthetics - public bodies in space and private experiences through 
>> time, are an involuted (Ouroboran, umbilical, involuted) Monism. If you 
>> don't understand what that means then you are arguing with a straw man. 
> If you ARE the sequence of neurological events and the neurological events 
> follow deterministic or probabilistic rules then you will also follow 
> deterministic or probabilistic rules. 

That's a tautology. If I move my arm, then I am causing improbable 
neurological events to occur. Muscles, cells, molecules follow my intention 
rather than their own. The cells are not causing my arm to move - if they 
were, that would be a spasm.

> However, you don't believe that this is the case. So sometimes there must 
> be neurological events which are "spontaneous" according to your definition 
> - outside the normal causal chain.

Spontaneous *IS* the normal causality. It isn't a 'chain'. The entire body 
and brain serve a single purpose - to support a particular quality of 
participatory experience. If it is not doing that, then the person is dead 
or in a coma. Unconsciousness is your causal chain. Consciousness is 
intentional self-modification of causality itself.

> Absent this, you return to the default scientific position.

The default scientific position is that particles decay after a "random" 
duration (i.e. spontaneous), making each event in the cosmos subject to 
non-deterministic and unique outcomes. Determinism is an approximate view 
from a great distance. This is what Multisense Realism specifically 
suggests: Perceptual relativity based on sense attenuation as the sole 
universal principle.


> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou 

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