On 20 Apr 2013, at 22:04, John Mikes wrote:

Evgeniy: although I had my disagreements with Stuart dating back to prior to the 1997 Nashua Conference, I have to agree here. Turing was a great mind, his ideas leading to our (embryonic, binary) computing machine are great, it is not the ultimate word.
I wonder how much Bruno's (Loeb's) universal machine is such?
So far we have no better one, the Turingesque contraption is our miraculous panacea to lots of things, but it may have its limitations and disadvantages.
Screwdriver, or not.


With such thesis, universal machine are "really" the most universal non trivial entity. Then they are quite limited, and that is why a universal machine, when looking inward, will build an infinity of more and more complex (and diverging) possible theories to understand their behavior. And she has disadvantage, they can crash, and they can't know exactly what that mean, so some of the theories that they will build will have a religious nature.

Bruno




John M


On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi <use...@rudnyi.ru> wrote: I am reading now Beyond Mechanism: Putting Life back into Biology. In Foreword: Evolution beyond Newton, Darwin, and Entailing Law, Stuart A. Kauffman writes:

p. 9 "Here is the first 'strange' step. Can you name all the uses of a screwdriver, alone, or with other objects or process? Well, screw in a a screw, open a paint can, wedge open a door, wedge closed a door, scrape putty off a window, stab an assailant, be an objet d'art, tied to a stick a fish spear, the spear rented to 'natives' for a 5 percent fish catch return becomes a new business, and so on. I think that we all are convinced that the following two statements are true: (1) the number of uses of a screw driver is indefinite; and (2) unlike the integers which can be ordered, there is no natural ordering of the uses of a screw driver. The uses are unordered. But these two claims entail that there is no 'Turing Effective Procedure' to list all the uses of a screwdriver alone or with other objects or processes. In short, there is no algorithm to list all the uses of a screwdriver."

Any comment?

Evgenii

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