This is the documentary mentioned Flying wales at 1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRijkhDqRU my pleasure 2013/6/12 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 12 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote: > >>> > >>> Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est) > >>> scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink elephants? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Those are test cases, extreme case, to argue more easily on the > question > >>> of > >>> existence, which is not obvious. > >>> Of course we are not discussing on the existence of flying elephants at > >>> all. > >> > >> > >> Maybe on a smaller planet with less gravity or a denser atmosphere > >> flying elephants would be a viable evolutionary niche? > > > > > > You will not help John! > > I know, couldn't resist :) > > > But the problem with your answer, is: what do you mean by "elephant". On > > that smaller planet elephant might be called "bird". > > Well, maybe something that triggers the classification of "elephant" > on a majority of human brains? Something that looks like this: > > http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg237/unbelivablybored/Montagebilledecopy.jpg > > > Can a dinosaur fly? Yes, they are called bird, but they are descendent of > > dinosaurs. But here some genomic can be invoked for establishing some > > identity or parental relation. > > > > With enough "IF" you can deduce what you want. If some dictator renamed > the > > bird as "elephant", then surely elephant can fly. > > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Telmo. > >> > >>> Bruno > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> JM > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 12:28 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 6/11/2013 12:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10 Jun 2013, at 20:04, meekerdb wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 6/10/2013 10:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 10 Jun 2013, at 18:25, meekerdb wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected] > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal < > [email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found > >>>>>>>>>>>> this: > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/ > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional, > >>>>>>>>>>>> i.e. > >>>>>>>>>>>> don't > >>>>>>>>>>>> exist even though their complete description is > self-consistent. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Everythingists apparently reject this idea. Platonists seem to > >>>>>>>>>>>> equate > >>>>>>>>>>>> 'true' with 'exists'. If you believe 17 is prime you must > >>>>>>>>>>>> believe > >>>>>>>>>>>> 17 > >>>>>>>>>>>> exists. I think this is wrong. If you believe that a flying > >>>>>>>>>>>> pink > >>>>>>>>>>>> elephant > >>>>>>>>>>>> is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Flying pink elephants are pink and not pink. That's why flying > >>>>>>>>>>>> pink > >>>>>>>>>>>> elephant > >>>>>>>>>>>> can't exist. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> A pink elephant is pink by construction. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Exact. But the flying pink elephant are also not pink. By > logic. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Or show > >>>>>>>>>>>> me > >>>>>>>>>>>> a flying pink elephant living on this planet which isn't not > >>>>>>>>>>>> pink. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Bruno, how are flying pink elephants any different from things > >>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>>>>> remember but am not experiencing this very moment? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I add explanation. Here you describe two 1p events. They are > >>>>>>>>>> similar, > >>>>>>>>>> although I guess you don't have precise memory of having > actually > >>>>>>>>>> seen a > >>>>>>>>>> Flying Pink Elephant in your life, except in cartoon or dreams. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> For example, I've > >>>>>>>>>>> been to Brussels but I'm not there right now. Brussels is an > >>>>>>>>>>> abstraction in my mind, but I believe it's the capital of > >>>>>>>>>>> Belgium. > >>>>>>>>>>> That's part of the Brussels abstraction, in the same sense that > >>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>>>>>>>>> pink is part of the flying pink elephant abstraction. No? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I do not dispute that fact. Pink elephant are pink. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> But the pink elephant on this planet happens also to be brown > >>>>>>>>>> rampant worms. > >>>>>>>>>> And I'm afraid that is only a classical logician's joke. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> (x = Flying Pink Elephant) -> (x = Brown Rampant Worms) is true > on > >>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>> planet because (x = Flying Pink Elephant) is false for all x, on > >>>>>>>>>> this planet > >>>>>>>>>> (I think), > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But (x = Flying Pink Elephant) is false for all x, is an > empirical > >>>>>>>> proposition. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Not one you can prove from arithmetic or logic. But the point was > >>>>>>>> that true propositions, like "Flying pink elephants are pink" > don't > >>>>>>>> imply > >>>>>>>> the existence of anything; just like "17 is prime" doesn't imply > the > >>>>>>>> existence of 17. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But how do you formalize "flying pink elephant are pink" ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I am simpled minded, so I formalized it in a first order logical > >>>>>>> formula: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> if x is an elephant which is pink and which is flying then x is > pink. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This does not entail Ex( x = an elephant which is pink and which is > >>>>>>> flying) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For the same reason that: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "if x is a prime number, which is even, and bigger that 3" then x > is > >>>>>>> bigger than 3" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> does not entail Ex(x = even prime number bigger than 3). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Actually it does. Let y="x is a prime number which is even and > bigger > >>>>>> than three". Then, if y anything; in classical logic everything > >>>>>> follows > >>>>>> from a contradiction. But we were talking about the metalogical > >>>>>> relation of > >>>>>> true/false and fictional/real. I don't think two are parallel. > It's > >>>>>> true > >>>>>> that 17 is prime - but it doesn't follow that 17 is real. It's true > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> Sherlock Holmes lived on Baker Street, but it doesn't follow that he > >>>>>> existed. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The difference comes from the fact that in arithmetic e can prove > Ex(x > >>>>> = > >>>>> 17), but we cannot prove in your "theory" that Ex(= Sherlock Holmes). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> But "E" in those two propositions don't have the same meaning. In the > >>>> first it means that the axioms of arithmetic imply there is an x=17. > In > >>>> the > >>>> second it means there was person who had all or most of the > >>>> characteristics > >>>> described in Conan Doyle's stories. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Of course something described by a contradiction can't exist. But a > >>>>>> contradiction is dependent on an axiomatic system. So a pink > elephant > >>>>>> doesn't exist, but "There is a pink elephant." is not a > contradiction; > >>>>>> it's > >>>>>> just a falsehood and it's not the case that everything follows from > a > >>>>>> falsehood. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> It is the case that everything follows from a falsehood. (0=1) does > >>>>> implies everything. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> In classical logic. But logic is just supposed to formalize good > >>>> reasoning. "There is a pink elephant." may mean no more than "That > >>>> looks > >>>> like an elephant painted pink." It's not an axiom of a formal system. > >>>> I > >>>> deliberately included "flying" because it makes the identification as > >>>> "elephant" problematic. If we found an animal that looks like an > >>>> elephant > >>>> painted pink, we'd certainly call it a "pink elephant". But if we > found > >>>> an > >>>> animal that looked like an elephant with wings that could fly, we'd > only > >>>> call it a "flying elephant" metaphorically. > >>>> > >>>> Brent > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> f -> q is a tautology. It is equivalent with ~f V p. that is with t V > >>>>> q. > >>>>> > >>>>> "p -> everything" in all words where p is false, even if there are > >>>>> worlds > >>>>> were p is true. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups > >>>> "Everything List" group. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >>>> an > >>>> email to [email protected]. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > . > >>>> Visit this group at > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "Everything List" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >>> email to [email protected]. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "Everything List" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >>> email to [email protected]. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Everything List" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >> email to [email protected]. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >> > >> > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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