This one more informative and without annoying music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p3m32AUwUM


2013/6/12 Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>

> This is the documentary mentioned
>
> Flying wales at 1:30
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRijkhDqRU
>
> my pleasure
>
>
> 2013/6/12 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>
>> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On 12 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 11 Jun 2013, at 23:18, John Mikes wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Laughing stock: how can so many excellently educted and smart(est)
>> >>> scientists SERIOUSLY debate on farces like flying pink elephants?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Those are test cases, extreme case, to argue more easily on the
>> question
>> >>> of
>> >>> existence, which is not obvious.
>> >>> Of course we are not discussing on the existence of flying elephants
>> at
>> >>> all.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Maybe on a smaller planet with less gravity or a denser atmosphere
>> >> flying elephants would be a viable evolutionary niche?
>> >
>> >
>> > You will not help John!
>>
>> I know, couldn't resist :)
>>
>> > But the problem with your answer, is: what  do you mean by "elephant".
>> On
>> > that smaller planet elephant might be called "bird".
>>
>> Well, maybe something that triggers the classification of "elephant"
>> on a majority of human brains? Something that looks like this:
>>
>> http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg237/unbelivablybored/Montagebilledecopy.jpg
>>
>> > Can a dinosaur fly? Yes, they are called bird, but they are descendent
>> of
>> > dinosaurs. But here some genomic can be invoked for establishing  some
>> > identity or parental relation.
>> >
>> > With enough "IF" you can deduce what you want. If some dictator renamed
>> the
>> > bird as "elephant", then surely elephant can fly.
>> >
>> > Bruno
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Telmo.
>> >>
>> >>> Bruno
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> JM
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 12:28 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 6/11/2013 12:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 10 Jun 2013, at 20:04, meekerdb wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 6/10/2013 10:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 10 Jun 2013, at 18:25, meekerdb wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On 6/10/2013 12:19 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bruno Marchal <
>> marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On 09 Jun 2013, at 11:20, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Bruno Marchal <
>> marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2013, at 17:55, meekerdb wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/8/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2013, at 05:15, meekerdb wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/2013 4:00 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, if there was a text of this it would be nice... I found
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> this:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A fictionalist account holds that some things are fictional,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> i.e.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exist even though their complete description is
>> self-consistent.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Everythingists apparently reject this idea. Platonists seem
>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> equate
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 'true' with 'exists'.  If you believe 17 is prime you must
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 17
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exists.  I think this is wrong.  If you believe that a flying
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pink
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> elephant
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is pink, must you believe a flying pink elephant exists?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Flying pink elephants are pink and not pink. That's why
>> flying
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pink
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> elephant
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> can't exist.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A pink elephant is pink by construction.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Exact. But the flying pink elephant are also not pink. By
>> logic.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Or show
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> me
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a flying pink elephant living on this planet which isn't not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pink.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bruno, how are flying pink elephants any different from things
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I
>> >>>>>>>>>>> remember but am not experiencing this very moment?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I add explanation. Here you describe two 1p events. They are
>> >>>>>>>>>> similar,
>> >>>>>>>>>> although I guess you don't have precise memory of having
>> actually
>> >>>>>>>>>> seen a
>> >>>>>>>>>> Flying Pink Elephant in your life, except in cartoon or dreams.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> For example, I've
>> >>>>>>>>>>> been to Brussels but I'm not there right now. Brussels is an
>> >>>>>>>>>>> abstraction in my mind, but I believe it's the capital of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Belgium.
>> >>>>>>>>>>> That's part of the Brussels abstraction, in the same sense
>> that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> being
>> >>>>>>>>>>> pink is part of the flying pink elephant abstraction. No?
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I do not dispute that fact. Pink elephant are pink.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> But the pink elephant on this planet happens also to be brown
>> >>>>>>>>>> rampant worms.
>> >>>>>>>>>> And I'm afraid that is only a classical logician's joke.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> (x = Flying Pink Elephant) -> (x = Brown Rampant Worms) is
>> true on
>> >>>>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>>>> planet because (x = Flying Pink Elephant) is false for all x,
>> on
>> >>>>>>>>>> this planet
>> >>>>>>>>>> (I think),
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> But (x = Flying Pink Elephant) is false for all x,  is an
>> empirical
>> >>>>>>>> proposition.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I agree.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Not one you can prove from arithmetic or logic.  But the point
>> was
>> >>>>>>>> that true propositions, like "Flying pink elephants are pink"
>> don't
>> >>>>>>>> imply
>> >>>>>>>> the existence of anything; just like "17 is prime" doesn't imply
>> the
>> >>>>>>>> existence of 17.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> But how do you formalize "flying pink elephant are pink" ?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I am simpled minded, so I formalized it in a first order logical
>> >>>>>>> formula:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> if x is an elephant which is pink and which is flying then x is
>> pink.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> This does not entail Ex( x = an elephant which is pink and which
>> is
>> >>>>>>> flying)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> For the same reason that:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> "if x is a prime number, which is even, and bigger that 3" then x
>> is
>> >>>>>>> bigger than 3"
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> does not entail Ex(x = even prime number bigger than 3).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Actually it does.  Let y="x is a prime number which is even and
>> bigger
>> >>>>>> than three".  Then, if y anything; in classical logic everything
>> >>>>>> follows
>> >>>>>> from a contradiction.  But we were talking about the metalogical
>> >>>>>> relation of
>> >>>>>> true/false and fictional/real.  I don't think two are parallel.
>>  It's
>> >>>>>> true
>> >>>>>> that 17 is prime - but it doesn't follow that 17 is real.  It's
>> true
>> >>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> Sherlock Holmes lived on Baker Street, but it doesn't follow that
>> he
>> >>>>>> existed.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The difference comes from the fact that in arithmetic e can prove
>> Ex(x
>> >>>>> =
>> >>>>> 17), but we cannot prove in your "theory" that Ex(= Sherlock
>> Holmes).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But "E" in those two propositions don't have the same meaning.  In
>> the
>> >>>> first it means that the axioms of arithmetic imply there is an x=17.
>>  In
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> second it means there was person who had all or most of the
>> >>>> characteristics
>> >>>> described in Conan Doyle's stories.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Of course something described by a contradiction can't exist.  But
>> a
>> >>>>>> contradiction is dependent on an axiomatic system.  So a pink
>> elephant
>> >>>>>> doesn't exist, but "There is a pink elephant." is not a
>> contradiction;
>> >>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>> just a falsehood and it's not the case that everything follows
>> from a
>> >>>>>> falsehood.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It is the case that everything follows from a falsehood. (0=1) does
>> >>>>> implies everything.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In classical logic.  But logic is just supposed to formalize good
>> >>>> reasoning.  "There is a pink elephant." may mean no more than "That
>> >>>> looks
>> >>>> like an elephant painted pink."  It's not an axiom of a formal
>> system.
>> >>>> I
>> >>>> deliberately included "flying" because it makes the identification as
>> >>>> "elephant" problematic.  If we found an animal that looks like an
>> >>>> elephant
>> >>>> painted pink, we'd certainly call it a "pink elephant".  But if we
>> found
>> >>>> an
>> >>>> animal that looked like an elephant with wings that could fly, we'd
>> only
>> >>>> call it a "flying elephant" metaphorically.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Brent
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> f -> q is a tautology. It is equivalent with ~f V p. that is with t
>> V
>> >>>>> q.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "p -> everything" in all words where p is false, even if there are
>> >>>>> worlds
>> >>>>> were p is true.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >
>> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>
>
> --
> Alberto.
>



-- 
Alberto.

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