Dr. Clough, so observation by this Observer, entails creation? This all sort of runs along with Shrodingers (sp) Cats, and, and High Everetts' Many Worlds, and so forth. Lenny Susslind at Stanford postulated huge amounts of observers arising in the universe, which he called Boltzmann Brains. It's an insane concept-but I like it anyway.
Jason, yes, many thinkers have seen what you have said in one manner or another. Yet, its not like I can write out a beautiful equation, throw the paper in the air, and as if wafts to ground, a wondrous new world emerges-so to speak. Dr. Clough's special Observer can do this, but not I. If you are suggesting that a simulation, complex enough, with enough computing power, and cycling time, is the same this as a Creation-I will give you no argument. Because from the viewpoint of one of the critters on Conway's screen, it is the world. Your text also suggests the thinking of Stephen Wolfram who once wrote (paraphrasing) "Why search the skies for ETI's when we could make a computing system that could, by programing and algorithms' uncover all that they know." This has always puzzled me, on the how, we can do this? It may have just been a very dry joke, by Wolfram-but it does sort of highlight your point about recursion, math, Turing, and so forth. -Mitch -----Original Message----- From: Jason Resch <[email protected]> To: Everything List <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: Re: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM) On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 3:34 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: Indeed, Dr. Marchal. But what comes to my mind would be (I suppose) to create an equation and see if it can then become, somehow, energy, or matter to thus, prove that the universe has a arithmatic basis. I understand that Max Tegmark is enthusiatic on the cosmos being mathematical, as, is, Seth Lloyd, but can we create protons, or a stone with a number, a do-while, statement? Computers and simulation enable us to create reality. In truth we are not creating anything, only exploring what was already there. Think of any computer game, they are comparatively simple simulations and lead to new realities we can go to and explore. Likewise, the entire Earth, or Milkyway could be accessed by someone with sufficient computing power. Or you could say they exist already as relations between numbers that exist in math. For illustration, consider the recursive function that goes from binary number to the next in a way that is identical to John Conway's Game of Life. Theis relation implies an infinite series of successive states starting from the initial number. Starting with the right initial number, this GoL simulation could contain a Turing machine running the universal dovetailer. It would execute all possible programs and all conscious observers are contained in that number relation (assuming computationalism), including you and me who believe in protons and electrons. Jason -----Original Message----- From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:35 pm Subject: Re: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM) On 12 Jun 2013, at 12:31, [email protected] wrote: Please allow my incipid observation. Rather then invoke non-material monads, let us, for arguments sake, assume that thought is a neurochemical phenomena, and that without this neurochemical phenomena, there is no thought. Similarly, mathematics as a phenomena, doesn't exist without a human primate, writing on the soil with a stick, marking clay or wax tablets, ink on paper, or human fingers executing a computer program. All material, from beginning to end. Is there any evidence, of the existence of non-material things? Yes, the objectivity of arithmetic or theoretical computer science. Are there evidences that matter has an ontological existence? (Besides the retaively self-moving entity's extrapolation in a local neighborhood) It seems to me there are more evidence that the physical has a mathematical origin. It is indeed a necessity in case we bet the brain/body/local universe is Turing emulable. Matter and energy are interesting, but not necessarily a primitive notion. Physicalism is by itself a strong assumption, incompatible with a simple and elegant theory of mind (computer science/arithmetic). Anyway, this makes comp testable, so we can test it. Bruno -----Original Message----- From: Roger Clough <[email protected]> To: - Roger Clough <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:44 am Subject: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM) ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM) A.EXISTENCE LEIBNIZ-- Mental (Nonphysical) + Physical MATERIALISM-- Physical, only in spacetime B. REALITY LEIBNIZ-- Only mental is real MATERIALISM- Only physical is real C. SPACETIME LEIBNIZ Exists only around physical bodies MATERIALISM The nonphysical is beyond spacetime, the physical is within it. D. IDEAS LEIBNIZ-- Exist mentally MATERIALISM --Do not exist , since not phjysical E. MATHEMATICS LEIBNIZ-- Only logic and numbers mentally exist. MATERIALISM-- Does not exist F. PHYSICS LEIBNIZ--Mentally exists as descriptions of particle behavior according to God's Pre- `existing Harmony MATERIALISM—Ill-defined. Physics seems to be embedded (?) in the particles F. GOD LEIBNIZ--Is the only active agent (doer and perceiver) in the universe-- and so is necessary for existence. MATERIALISM-- Is a fairy tale. G. NOTHING LEIBNIZ--- The space vacuum. The absence of a particle MATERIALISM--Can exist everywhere H. HUMAN AFFAIRS LEIBNIZ-- Incorporates psychology and can be applied to sociology MATERIALISM-- Seems to avoid the subject. I. PERCEPTION LEIBNIZ-- The ultimate perceiver is God. MATERIALISM-- Omits the ultimate perceiver since it cannot explain self. J. SCIENTIFIC ACCEPTANCE LEIBNIZ-- Unexplored by science or explored only to the extent that God, spirit, souil nd mind are seen to be necessary nonphysical entities necessary for existence. Endorsing eibniz is a career-buster. MATERIALISM-- Enthusiastically accepted and utilized. It acts as a cult. K. QUANTUM MECHANICS, NONLOCAL OR OTHERWISE LEIBNIZ-- All corporeal bodies share and partcipate in the space of existence according to their capabilities, which means that more dominant quanta dominate the less dominant and would seem to participagte in a wider range of differences. MATERIALISM-- QM is not possible since only physical entities exist. L. PHYSICAL VS NONPHYSICAL LEIBNIZ-- The physical is within spacetime, the nonphysical (the spiritual or mental orld) is outside of spacetime. MATERIALISM-- Only the physical exists. M. THE PARANORMAL LEIBNIZ-- The paranormal is normal, but based on the nonphysical world outside of spacetime. MATERIALISM-- Up front is always not to be taken seriously. N. COSMOLOGY--ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE LEIBNIZ-- Every monad has an indestructable soul which has been here from the creation of the universe, or else has been created or destroyed by God . My personal view is that this would allow for creation of matter from mind such as in the Big Bang”. MATERIALISM-- The classic position is that the universe has always been, but there are modern scientific theories of the “Big Bang”. O. LIFE LEIBNIZ-- Everything in the universe is alive. MATERIALISM-- There are vaious materialistic accounts of the formation of life. P. DEATH LEIBNIZ-- Everything in the universe is alive. Each living things “unfolds” from its soul or monad as a seed unfolds into a living plant. At death, the rotting body stays attached to its monad, just as in Christianity we sleep after death until resurrected with a new body in the Second Coming MATERIALISM-- The termination of what is believed to be life. Q. DETERMINISM LEIBNIZ-- Every body in the universe moves according to a “Pre-established Harmony (PEH)”. In my personal view this allows for what might be called “effective free choice”, meaning that only choices in accord with the PEH are possible. MATERIALISM-- The termination of what is believed to be life. R. DIVINE INTERVENTION IN THE WORLD LEIBNIZ-- No divine intervention is possible or needed, since during the week of Creation, God drew up his Pre-established Harmony (the PEH) and rested on the 7th day, while the universe plays out according to this script without God's interventions. Since the PEH foresaw and acted according to all events, good or bad, this would allow for prayer to work or not work. Thus the PEH can be thought of as a divine musical composition or all-knowing computer program running on its own. In a sense, the PEH is God asleep. MATERIALISM-- Since there is no God, there can be no divine intervention. S. INTELLIGENCE LEIBNIZ-- The ability to make choices autonomously, not by some computer program. Every body in the universe moves according to a “Pre-established Harmony” (PEH) . MATERIALISM-- Matter may be intelligent, but we do not know its language. There is something call “artificial intgelligence” used in computerbut a computer, but e termination of what is believed to be life. T. CONSCIOUNESS LEIBNIZ-- Internal perception (see above), requiring a subject (self) and object. MATERIALISM-- Seems to me to be impossible, since materialism has no self to perceive or be conscious. U. MIND-BODY PROBLEM LEIBNIZ-- Since mind and body are both mental, there is no such problem. MATERIALISM-- Seems to me to be impossible, since materialism has no self to perceive or be conscious. V. THE FUNDAMENTAL REALITY LEIBNIZ-- Mind and the subjective world MATERIALISM-- Matter and the objective world. - Roger Clough Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 6/11/2013 See my Leibniz site at http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough ____________________________________________________________________ DreamMail - Your mistake not to try it once, but my mistake for your leaving off. use again www.dreammail.org <%--DreamMail_AD_END--> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
