Dr. Clough, so observation by this Observer, entails creation? This all sort of 
runs along with Shrodingers (sp) Cats, and, and High Everetts' Many Worlds, and 
so forth. Lenny Susslind at Stanford postulated huge amounts of observers 
arising in the universe, which he called Boltzmann Brains. It's an insane 
concept-but I like it anyway. 


Jason, yes, many thinkers have seen what you have said in one manner or 
another. Yet, its not like I can write out a beautiful equation, throw the 
paper in the air, and as if wafts to ground, a wondrous new world emerges-so to 
speak. Dr. Clough's special Observer can do this, but not I. If you are 
suggesting that a simulation, complex enough, with enough computing power, and 
cycling time, is the same this as a Creation-I will give you no argument. 
Because from the viewpoint of one of the critters on Conway's screen, it is the 
world.  Your text also suggests the thinking of Stephen Wolfram who once wrote 
(paraphrasing) "Why search the skies for ETI's when we could make a computing 
system that could, by programing and algorithms' uncover all that they know."  
This has always puzzled me, on the how, we can do this? It may have just been a 
very dry joke, by Wolfram-but it does sort of highlight your point about 
recursion, math, Turing, and so forth. 

-Mitch 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>
To: Everything List <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 3:29 pm
Subject: Re: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM)







On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 3:34 PM,  <spudboy...@aol.com> wrote:

Indeed, Dr. Marchal. But what comes to my mind would be (I suppose) to create 
an equation and see if it can then become, somehow, energy, or matter to thus, 
prove that the universe has a arithmatic basis. I understand that Max Tegmark 
is enthusiatic on the cosmos being mathematical, as, is, Seth Lloyd, but can we 
create protons, or a stone with a number, a do-while,  statement? 



Computers and simulation enable us to create reality.  In truth we are not 
creating anything, only exploring what was already there.


Think of any computer game, they are comparatively simple simulations and lead 
to new realities we can go to and explore. Likewise, the entire Earth, or 
Milkyway could be accessed by someone with sufficient computing power.  Or you 
could say they exist already as relations between numbers that exist in math.  
For illustration, consider the recursive function that goes from binary number 
to the next in a way that is identical to John Conway's Game of Life.  Theis 
relation implies an infinite series of successive states starting from the 
initial number.  Starting with the right initial number, this GoL simulation 
could contain a Turing machine running the universal dovetailer.  It would 
execute all possible programs and all conscious observers are contained in that 
number relation (assuming computationalism), including you and me who believe 
in protons and electrons.


Jason


 




-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:35 pm
Subject: Re: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM)




On 12 Jun 2013, at 12:31, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:


Please allow my incipid observation. Rather then invoke non-material monads, 
let us, for arguments sake, assume that thought is a neurochemical phenomena, 
and that without this neurochemical phenomena, there is no thought. Similarly, 
mathematics as a phenomena, doesn't exist without a human primate, writing on 
the soil with a stick, marking clay or wax tablets, ink on paper, or human 
fingers executing a computer program. All material, from beginning to end. Is 
there any evidence, of the existence of non-material things? 



Yes, the objectivity of arithmetic or theoretical computer science.


Are there evidences that matter has an ontological existence? (Besides the 
retaively self-moving entity's extrapolation in a local neighborhood)


It seems to me there are more evidence that the physical has a mathematical 
origin.


It is indeed a necessity in case we bet the brain/body/local universe is Turing 
emulable.


Matter and energy are interesting, but not necessarily a primitive notion. 
Physicalism is by itself a strong assumption, incompatible with a simple and 
elegant theory of mind (computer science/arithmetic).


Anyway, this makes comp testable, so we can test it.


Bruno








 



 
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>
To: - Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>
Sent: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:44 am
Subject: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM)




ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM)


A.EXISTENCE
LEIBNIZ-- Mental (Nonphysical) + Physical 
MATERIALISM-- Physical, only in spacetime 


B. REALITY
LEIBNIZ-- Only mental is real
MATERIALISM- Only physical is real 

C. SPACETIME 
LEIBNIZ Exists only around physical bodies 
MATERIALISM The nonphysical is beyond spacetime, the physical is within it.

D. IDEAS 
LEIBNIZ-- Exist mentally
MATERIALISM --Do not exist , since not phjysical

E. MATHEMATICS
LEIBNIZ-- Only logic and numbers mentally exist.
MATERIALISM-- Does not exist 

F. PHYSICS 
LEIBNIZ--Mentally exists as descriptions of particle behavior according to 
God's Pre- `existing Harmony
MATERIALISM—Ill-defined. Physics seems to be embedded (?) in the particles 

F. GOD
LEIBNIZ--Is the only active agent (doer and perceiver) in the universe-- 
and so is necessary for existence. 
MATERIALISM-- Is a fairy tale. 

G. NOTHING
LEIBNIZ--- The space vacuum. The absence of a particle
MATERIALISM--Can exist everywhere 


H. HUMAN AFFAIRS
LEIBNIZ-- Incorporates psychology and can be applied to sociology
MATERIALISM-- Seems to avoid the subject. 


I. PERCEPTION
LEIBNIZ-- The ultimate perceiver is God.
MATERIALISM-- Omits the ultimate perceiver since it cannot explain self. 


J. SCIENTIFIC ACCEPTANCE 
LEIBNIZ-- Unexplored by science or explored only to the extent that God, 
spirit, souil nd mind are seen to be necessary nonphysical entities necessary 
for existence. Endorsing eibniz is a career-buster.
MATERIALISM-- Enthusiastically accepted and utilized. It acts as a cult.




K. QUANTUM MECHANICS, NONLOCAL OR OTHERWISE
LEIBNIZ-- All corporeal bodies share and partcipate in the space of existence 
according
to their capabilities, which means that more dominant quanta dominate the less 
dominant
and would seem to participagte in a wider range of differences. 
MATERIALISM-- QM is not possible since only physical entities exist.


L. PHYSICAL VS NONPHYSICAL
LEIBNIZ-- The physical is within spacetime, the nonphysical (the spiritual or 
mental orld) is outside of spacetime. 
MATERIALISM-- Only the physical exists. 


M. THE PARANORMAL 
LEIBNIZ-- The paranormal is normal, but based on the nonphysical world outside 
of spacetime. 
MATERIALISM-- Up front is always not to be taken seriously.


N. COSMOLOGY--ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE
LEIBNIZ-- Every monad has an indestructable soul which has been here from the 
creation of the universe, or else has been created or destroyed by God . My 
personal view is that this would allow for creation of matter from mind such as 
in the Big Bang”.
MATERIALISM-- The classic position is that the universe has always been,
but there are modern scientific theories of the “Big Bang”.


O. LIFE
LEIBNIZ-- Everything in the universe is alive.
MATERIALISM-- There are vaious materialistic accounts of the formation of life.


P. DEATH
LEIBNIZ-- Everything in the universe is alive. Each living things “unfolds” 
from its soul
or monad as a seed unfolds into a living plant. At death, the rotting body 
stays attached to its monad, just as in 
Christianity we sleep after death until resurrected with a new body in the 
Second Coming 
MATERIALISM-- The termination of what is believed to be life.


Q. DETERMINISM
LEIBNIZ-- Every body in the universe moves according to a “Pre-established 
Harmony 
(PEH)”. In my personal view this allows for what might be called “effective 
free choice”, meaning that only choices in accord with the PEH are possible.
MATERIALISM-- The termination of what is believed to be life.




R. DIVINE INTERVENTION IN THE WORLD
LEIBNIZ-- No divine intervention is possible or needed, since during the week 
of Creation, God drew up his Pre-established Harmony (the PEH) and rested on 
the 7th day, while the universe plays out according to this script without 
God's interventions. Since the PEH foresaw and acted according to all events, 
good or bad, this would allow for prayer to work or not work. Thus the PEH can 
be thought of as a divine musical composition or all-knowing computer program 
running on its own. In a sense, the PEH is God asleep. 
MATERIALISM-- Since there is no God, there can be no divine intervention.


S. INTELLIGENCE
LEIBNIZ-- The ability to make choices autonomously, not by some computer 
program.
Every body in the universe moves according to a “Pre-established Harmony” (PEH) 
.
MATERIALISM-- Matter may be intelligent, but we do not know its language.
There is something call “artificial intgelligence” used in computerbut a 
computer, but
e termination of what is believed to be life.


T. CONSCIOUNESS
LEIBNIZ-- Internal perception (see above), requiring a subject (self) and 
object.
MATERIALISM-- Seems to me to be impossible, since materialism has no self
to perceive or be conscious. 


U. MIND-BODY PROBLEM
LEIBNIZ-- Since mind and body are both mental, there is no such problem. 
MATERIALISM-- Seems to me to be impossible, since materialism has no self
to perceive or be conscious. 


V. THE FUNDAMENTAL REALITY

LEIBNIZ-- Mind and the subjective world

MATERIALISM-- Matter and the objective world. 
- Roger Clough
 
 
 

Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 6/11/2013 
See my Leibniz site at

http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough

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