On 12 Jun 2013, at 22:34, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Indeed, Dr. Marchal. But what comes to my mind would be (I suppose) to create an equation and see if it can then become, somehow, energy, or matter to thus, prove that the universe has a arithmatic basis.

Assuming there is some energy somewhere. But we don't need that assumption, once we can explain where the observation of stable and coherent beliefs in such things develop, and are locally correct.

If the brain is Turing emulable, there is an explanation why we cannot emulate matter at all. The apparent matter is the result of an indeterminacy on infinities of computational histories.



I understand that Max Tegmark is enthusiatic on the cosmos being mathematical, as, is, Seth Lloyd,

I hope you understand that comp makes them wrong on this a priori, at least. Unless you extent the sense of mathematical a lot (which would make math inconsistent, again a priori, because you can use non standard set theories to try to make sense of such ideas).

With comp, arithmetic seen from inside is *quite* beyond the whole of math and physics.





but can we create protons, or a stone with a number, a do-while, statement?

Comp predicts that we can't.

I see you have missed that comp entails a reversal between physics and machine's psychology/theology.

With comp you can't fail a machine for long, on matter. It is super- exponentially costly. To simulate matter exactly, you need to simulate the universal dovetailing in a short finite time. With a quantum computer you can simulate matter exactly, but this is explained by comp by the fact that it uses the "universal dovetailing" already there (the indeterminacy on all computations).

So there is no equation "creating" matter. But there is a simple arithmetic to explain how such matter emerges necessarily in some stable and sharable dreams by numbers.

You might need to study and grasp the UDA and all that, to see precisely the point.

Bruno







-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jun 12, 2013 12:35 pm
Subject: Re: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM)


On 12 Jun 2013, at 12:31, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Please allow my incipid observation. Rather then invoke non- material monads, let us, for arguments sake, assume that thought is a neurochemical phenomena, and that without this neurochemical phenomena, there is no thought. Similarly, mathematics as a phenomena, doesn't exist without a human primate, writing on the soil with a stick, marking clay or wax tablets, ink on paper, or human fingers executing a computer program. All material, from beginning to end. Is there any evidence, of the existence of non- material things?

Yes, the objectivity of arithmetic or theoretical computer science.

Are there evidences that matter has an ontological existence? (Besides the retaively self-moving entity's extrapolation in a local neighborhood)

It seems to me there are more evidence that the physical has a mathematical origin.

It is indeed a necessity in case we bet the brain/body/local universe is Turing emulable.

Matter and energy are interesting, but not necessarily a primitive notion. Physicalism is by itself a strong assumption, incompatible with a simple and elegant theory of mind (computer science/ arithmetic).

Anyway, this makes comp testable, so we can test it.

Bruno









-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>
To: - Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>
Sent: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 6:44 am
Subject: ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM)


ROADMARKERS ON THE ROAD NOT TAKEN (LEIBNIZ VS MATERIALISM)

A.EXISTENCE
LEIBNIZ-- Mental (Nonphysical) + Physical
MATERIALISM-- Physical, only in spacetime

B. REALITY
LEIBNIZ-- Only mental is real
MATERIALISM- Only physical is real

C. SPACETIME
LEIBNIZ Exists only around physical bodies
MATERIALISM The nonphysical is beyond spacetime, the physical is within it.

D. IDEAS
LEIBNIZ-- Exist mentally
MATERIALISM --Do not exist , since not phjysical

E. MATHEMATICS
LEIBNIZ-- Only logic and numbers mentally exist.
MATERIALISM-- Does not exist

F. PHYSICS
LEIBNIZ--Mentally exists as descriptions of particle behavior according to God's Pre- `existing Harmony MATERIALISM—Ill-defined. Physics seems to be embedded (?) in the particles

F. GOD
LEIBNIZ--Is the only active agent (doer and perceiver) in the universe--
and so is necessary for existence.
MATERIALISM-- Is a fairy tale.

G. NOTHING
LEIBNIZ--- The space vacuum. The absence of a particle
MATERIALISM--Can exist everywhere

H. HUMAN AFFAIRS
LEIBNIZ-- Incorporates psychology and can be applied to sociology
MATERIALISM-- Seems to avoid the subject.

I. PERCEPTION
LEIBNIZ-- The ultimate perceiver is God.
MATERIALISM-- Omits the ultimate perceiver since it cannot explain self.

J. SCIENTIFIC ACCEPTANCE
LEIBNIZ-- Unexplored by science or explored only to the extent that God, spirit, souil nd mind are seen to be necessary nonphysical entities necessary for existence. Endorsing eibniz is a career- buster. MATERIALISM-- Enthusiastically accepted and utilized. It acts as a cult.


K. QUANTUM MECHANICS, NONLOCAL OR OTHERWISE
LEIBNIZ-- All corporeal bodies share and partcipate in the space of existence according to their capabilities, which means that more dominant quanta dominate the less dominant
and would seem to participagte in a wider range of differences.
MATERIALISM-- QM is not possible since only physical entities exist.

L. PHYSICAL VS NONPHYSICAL
LEIBNIZ-- The physical is within spacetime, the nonphysical (the spiritual or mental orld) is outside of spacetime.
MATERIALISM-- Only the physical exists.


M. THE PARANORMAL
LEIBNIZ-- The paranormal is normal, but based on the nonphysical world outside of spacetime.
MATERIALISM-- Up front is always not to be taken seriously.

N. COSMOLOGY--ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE
LEIBNIZ-- Every monad has an indestructable soul which has been here from the creation of the universe, or else has been created or destroyed by God . My personal view is that this would allow for creation of matter from mind such as in the Big Bang”. MATERIALISM-- The classic position is that the universe has always been,
but there are modern scientific theories of the “Big Bang”.

O. LIFE
LEIBNIZ-- Everything in the universe is alive.
MATERIALISM-- There are vaious materialistic accounts of the formation of life.

P. DEATH
LEIBNIZ-- Everything in the universe is alive. Each living things “unfolds” from its soul or monad as a seed unfolds into a living plant. At death, the rotting body stays attached to its monad, just as in Christianity we sleep after death until resurrected with a new body in the Second Coming
MATERIALISM-- The termination of what is believed to be life.

Q. DETERMINISM
LEIBNIZ-- Every body in the universe moves according to a “Pre- established Harmony (PEH)”. In my personal view this allows for what might be called “effective free choice”, meaning that only choices in accord with the PEH are possible.
MATERIALISM-- The termination of what is believed to be life.


R. DIVINE INTERVENTION IN THE WORLD
LEIBNIZ-- No divine intervention is possible or needed, since during the week of Creation, God drew up his Pre-established Harmony (the PEH) and rested on the 7th day, while the universe plays out according to this script without God's interventions. Since the PEH foresaw and acted according to all events, good or bad, this would allow for prayer to work or not work. Thus the PEH can be thought of as a divine musical composition or all-knowing computer program running on its own. In a sense, the PEH is God asleep. MATERIALISM-- Since there is no God, there can be no divine intervention.

S. INTELLIGENCE
LEIBNIZ-- The ability to make choices autonomously, not by some computer program. Every body in the universe moves according to a “Pre-established Harmony” (PEH) . MATERIALISM-- Matter may be intelligent, but we do not know its language. There is something call “artificial intgelligence” used in computerbut a computer, but
e termination of what is believed to be life.

T. CONSCIOUNESS
LEIBNIZ-- Internal perception (see above), requiring a subject (self) and object. MATERIALISM-- Seems to me to be impossible, since materialism has no self
to perceive or be conscious.

U. MIND-BODY PROBLEM
LEIBNIZ-- Since mind and body are both mental, there is no such problem. MATERIALISM-- Seems to me to be impossible, since materialism has no self
to perceive or be conscious.

V. THE FUNDAMENTAL REALITY
LEIBNIZ-- Mind and the subjective world
MATERIALISM-- Matter and the objective world.
- Roger Clough



Dr. Roger Clough NIST (ret.) 6/11/2013
See my Leibniz site at
http://team.academia.edu/RogerClough
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DreamMail - Your mistake not to try it once, but my mistake for your leaving off. use again www.dreammail.org
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