On 9/2/2013 10:11 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 01.09.2013 21:52 meekerdb said the following:
Unconditioned=random works.


I do not think so. I would say that

If we say that the unconditioned is random, then it
would be foolish for us to try to do anything with the
conditioning.

?? How do you conclude that? Just because there is something Bohm calls "the unconditioned" doesn't mean there is not also conditioning, which may modify the unconditioned (=random).

My point is just that if you go thru the excerpts below and substitute "random" for "unconditioned" everywhere then the meaning is unchanged. Bohm says, "If everything is conditioned there's no way out." I don't know where he thinks "out" is, but if somethings are random then he can get there.

Brent


Evgenii


Brent

On 9/1/2013 6:39 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
I am reading David Bohm, Thought as a System. A few quotes below to
 the theme that is quite often under discussion here.

Evgenii

p.  72 “We have to be able to think on this clearly; even though,
as I said, that by itself won’t really change the reflexes. But if
we don’t think of it clearly then all our attempts to get into this
will go wrong. Clear thinking implies that we are in some way
awakened a little bit. Perhaps there is something beyond the reflex
which is at work – in other words, something unconditioned.”

p. 72 “The question is really: is there the unconditioned? If
everything is conditioned, then there’s no way out. But the very
fact that we are sometimes able to see new things would suggest
that there is unconditioned. Maybe the deeper material structure of
the brain is unconditioned, or maybe beyond.”

p. 72 “If there is the unconditioned, which could be the movement
of intelligence, then there is some possibility of getting into
this.”

p. 73 “If we say that there cannot be the unconditioned, then it
would be foolish for us to try to do anything with the
conditioning. Is that clear?”

p. 72 “If we once assume that there cannot be the unconditioned,
then we’re stuck. On the other hand, if we assume that there is the
 unconditioned, again we are going to be stuck – we will produce an
 image of the unconditioned in the system of conditioning, and
mistake the image for the unconditioned. Therefore, let’s say that
there may be the unconditioned. We leave room for that. We have to
leave room in our thought for possibilities.”




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