On 02.09.2013 20:41 meekerdb said the following:
On 9/2/2013 10:11 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 01.09.2013 21:52 meekerdb said the following:
Unconditioned=random works.

I do not think so. I would say that

If we say that the unconditioned is random, then it would be
foolish for us to try to do anything with the conditioning.

?? How do you conclude that?  Just because there is something Bohm
calls "the unconditioned" doesn't mean there is not also
conditioning, which may modify the unconditioned (=random).

I am in the middle of the book, so I cannot tell you exactly what would Bohm say. The answer was mine.

If I have understood Bohm correctly, he believes that we can somewhat influence the thought process. Along this way however, I doubt that random process will help. My logic is close to that of Rex Allen


Yet, I did not want to say that this is Bohm's opinion. If I find something to this end in his book, I will let you know.


My point is just that if you go thru the excerpts below and
substitute "random" for "unconditioned" everywhere then the meaning
is unchanged. Bohm says, "If everything is conditioned there's no way
out."  I don't know where he thinks "out" is, but if somethings are
random then he can get there.




On 9/1/2013 6:39 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
I am reading David Bohm, Thought as a System. A few quotes
below to the theme that is quite often under discussion here.


p.  72 “We have to be able to think on this clearly; even
though, as I said, that by itself won’t really change the
reflexes. But if we don’t think of it clearly then all our
attempts to get into this will go wrong. Clear thinking implies
that we are in some way awakened a little bit. Perhaps there is
something beyond the reflex which is at work – in other words,
something unconditioned.”

p. 72 “The question is really: is there the unconditioned? If
everything is conditioned, then there’s no way out. But the
very fact that we are sometimes able to see new things would
suggest that there is unconditioned. Maybe the deeper material
structure of the brain is unconditioned, or maybe beyond.”

p. 72 “If there is the unconditioned, which could be the
movement of intelligence, then there is some possibility of
getting into this.”

p. 73 “If we say that there cannot be the unconditioned, then
it would be foolish for us to try to do anything with the
conditioning. Is that clear?”

p. 72 “If we once assume that there cannot be the
unconditioned, then we’re stuck. On the other hand, if we
assume that there is the unconditioned, again we are going to
be stuck – we will produce an image of the unconditioned in the
system of conditioning, and mistake the image for the
unconditioned. Therefore, let’s say that there may be the
unconditioned. We leave room for that. We have to leave room in
our thought for possibilities.”

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