On 21 Dec 2013, at 19:06, Edgar Owen wrote:

Craig, Godel's Theorem applies only to human mathematical systems.

`provably assuming that humans are arithmetically sound machine (which`

`is a rather strong assumption).`

It doesn't apply to the logico-mathematical system of reality, ofwhich the computational systems of biological organisms includinghumans are a part.

I agree.

Why? The answer is straightforward. Because Reality's logico-mathematical system is entirely computational in the sense thatevery state at every present moment is directly computed from theprior state.

`Only in the third person perspective, but with computationalism, all`

`accessible realities are not computation, nor result of computation,`

`but they are the result of infinitely many computations mixed with the`

`first person indeterminacies.`

Godel's Theorem does not apply to this.

`Right. Gödel' theorem applies to finite or enumerable machines or`

`theories. Not on their models, even in arithmetic.`

What Godel's Theorem says is that given some mathematical system itis possible to formulate a correct statement

`It is correct if we already know that the theory is correct, which is`

`doubtful for rich theories like "us", in case of comp.`

which is not computable from the axioms. But Reality doesn't workthat way. It simply computes the next state of itself which isalways possible.

`Reality does not compute. That's the digital physics thesis, which`

`makes no sense. Indeed, as often explained here:`

`if digital physics is correct then comp is correct, BUT if comp is`

`correct then digital physics is incorrect. thus digital physics`

`entails the negation of digital physics, and this makes digital`

`physics incorrect (for a TOE) in all case (with comp or with non comp).`

The implication is that the logico-mathematical system of reality ISAND IN FACT MUST NECESSARILY BE logically consistent and logicallycomplete in every detail. If it wasn't Reality would tear itselfapart at the inconsistencies and pause at the incompletenesses andcould not exist. But Reality does exist.

`OK, but we don't *know* that. We hope that. We know only that we are`

`conscious here-and-now. We don't *know* if there are planets and`

`galaxies. We bet on that. Those are theoretical assumptions.`

Reality is analogous to a running software program.

`Read the UDA. Apparent realities have to be much bigger than anything`

`we could emulate on a computer. That is already the case for`

`arithmetic itself. You might confuse proof and computation.`

Godel's Theorem does not apply. A human could speculate as towhether any particular state of Reality could ever arisecomputationally and it might be impossible to determine that, butagain that has nothing to do with the actual operation ofReality,since it is only a particular internal mental model of thatreality.

`The universal dovetailer get all states of mind, but no states of`

`physical reality at all, which needs the non computable First Person`

`Indeterminacy on all (relative) computations. Then the bigger`

`"theological (true) reality" is even bigger.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.