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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 7:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Climate models Here's the Mountain Pass rare earth mine in Southern California: 35.48°N 115.53°W It produced cerium, lanthanium neodymium, and europium for rare earth magnets until the Chinese undercut the market. It has huge piles of tailings rich in thorium and radium which are at present just a waste product that is hard to get rid of because it's slightly radioactive. Availabililty of thorium is not a problem. Designing and building the powerplants is. Exactly, and never disputed that there are ready reserves of Thorium; what I did find absurd is including the highly entropized (if I can spin it that way) Thorium in common garden dirt as counting towards some future reserve. Again agreed, there is no existing LFTR design. I have read proposals that seem reasonable, but before proposals of that nature can become transfigured into blueprint quality specifications a massive engineering and quality control operation has to happen. Engineers cost money, and so do engineers in test. Lots of money I might add. LFTR seems less exotic than some of the Gen IV breeders that rely on exotic coolants such as molten lead, and for this reason more doable. How many tens of billions of upstream money will be needed however is something I have not heard anyone address. And how many years as well. How much to produce a detailed LFTR specification? That is one I which assumptions have been verified and tested. Not a back of the envelope specification, but a real blueprint. · How much more to build a pilot scale facility and verify that the designs and the plant resulting from those designs meets specifications? · How much ramp up will be needed in upstream supply capacities over the entire chain of production and assembly of LFTR plants. From Thorium mining & refining to the purity levels required; to the reactor and re-processor facilities & all the many sub-assemblies that these complex engineered structures contain; to the waste management, separation & sequestration facilities (not everything is burned up in an LFTR). Perhaps some existing infrastructure can be leveraged, but I am certain that there exist wide gaps that would need to build capacity if LFTR reactors were ever to be built out at scale. · How much more time then to build the first commercial model and to test it and ensure its operational readiness? · Then How much more energy, capital and time before the LFTR sector became net energy positive? · I am sure there are other points I missed. Chris Brent On 4/4/2014 3:51 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: > > Hey Stephen - try refining it from your dirt. Your garden dirt is not > ore quality; it is not a feasible supply. Do you believe the > minuscule quantities of uranium in your garden's dirt should be > counted as part of global uranium reserves? > > Why exactly? > > By your count the garden dirt argument - taken to the absurd - why > not include all the uranium in the solar system, our entire galaxy - > after all who knows maybe someday with some technology will it all > may be recoverable.... What have you been reading? > > > > *From:*[email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Paul > King *Sent:* Friday, April 04, 2014 3:33 PM *To:* > [email protected] *Subject:* Re: Climate models > > > > Hey Chris, > > > > About a uranium shortage. Come scrape up a few yards of dirt near > where I live and you'lll find lots and lots of uranium. We have a > huge problem with the radon gas that the stuff generates... What have > you been reading? > > > > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 3:56 PM, John Clark <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Chris de Morsella > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > >> Solar PV is here today > > > > Solar PV has been here for 60 years and THOUSANDS of times more > money has been spent developing it than has been spent on LFTR R&D, > and yet solar PV is still just a rounding error in our total energy > budget. > > > >> I see the practical technological limits that constrain what can >> actually be accomplished. > > > > Apparently not. > > > > > >>> Oh for heavens sake! There is no Uranium shortage and Thorium is >>> 4 times as abundant and easier to separate from it's ore than >>> Uranium is, and we can only get energy from .7% of the Uranium >>> but we can use 100% of the Thorium! So do you REALLY want to say >>> we shouldn't consider Thorium because we can't get enough of it?? >>> > > > >> Wrong again > > > > I want to know if I really understand you correctly, are you saying > that a major problem (or even a minor problem) with using Thorium for > energy is that there isn't enough of it? Is that really your > position? > > >> the world is facing a recoverable uranium peak that will be reached >> within a decade or two (at current extraction rates, if nuclear is >> ramped up peak uranium will be reached that much sooner). > > > Uranium prices are the lowest they've been in 8 years. I found a > chart for the last 5 years: > > > > And so I would like to make a public bet with you and see if you're > willing to put your money where your mouth is. You say the shit will > hit the fan within a decade or two, so if before April 4 2024 there > is widespread reactor shutdowns because of Uranium shortages (and not > due to temper tantrums from environmentalists) then, assuming I'm > still alive, I will send you $1000; if there are not widespread > reactor shutdowns because of Uranium shortages before April 4 2024 > then, assuming you're still alive, you only needs to send me $100. So > do we have a bet? Come on I'm giving you 10 to 1 odds! > >>> You are the one making the claim that extracting 12 grams of >>> Thorium from one meter of dirt would take more energy than the >>> Thorium could produce, so it is up to you to show it's true; >>> although nobody would be dumb enough to bother with such dirt >>> when there is ore that contains 50% Thorium available. > > > >> Whatever. > > > > Yes, whatever. > >> I do not inhabit the same magical thinking universe you seem to >> live in. > > > > How nice for you, therefore by accepting my bet you can make an easy > $1000. > > John K Clark > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in > the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this > topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/-LyjqBLxxFY/unsubscribe. > > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>. Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, > visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > Kindest Regards, > > Stephen Paul King > > Senior Researcher > > Mobile: (864) 567-3099 > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://www.provensecure.us/ > > > > > "This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the > use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may > contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, > confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may > be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender > immediately and delete this message immediately." > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and > stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>. To post to > this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>. Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, > visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and > stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>. To post to > this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>. Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, > visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
