Can you please repost your objections to MWI? Even I don't think it can be correct, but I would like to read your take on it. Thanks! Samiya
> On 29-May-2014, at 11:58 am, [email protected] wrote: > > > >> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 7:43:13 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> Nice post! >> >> Interesting, and indeed very reasonable with comp, in its expectable natural >> realizations. I agree on points on salvia too, except that salvia's reports >> witness extreme asymmetrical phenomena, which suggests some disconnection >> between the left brain and the right brain. Of course it is a very complex >> matter, but there are tools (some a bit toxic though, some other not). >> >> Salvia action is believed to be very specific, and what makes salvia >> attractive for such studies is that when smoked, the experience last for 4m >> to 8m in the average, on sober people. You feel quite well after (unless the >> goal was taking a superdose for making a funny video for youtube in company >> of light and noisy sitters, that is using it contradicting the user guide, >> or common sense when you know what the plant is capable of). >> >> No doubt we will come back on this. I have *many* theories on salvia in the >> comp realm. Including possible different report predictions for different >> people. >> >> Nice paper, but it still miss Everett's and comp's ways of differentiation >> of consciousness. > > well....they are interested in the hypothesis consciousness is generated by > the bits between the ears. > > The question from me to you would be, given the typical effects of salvia are > so close to key parts of your comp extension theories, how did you manage to > control for the null-hypothesis? That being, salvia affects the brain like a > drug, with very specific effects statistically speaking, which if you go into > looking for computational, arithmetic or whatever truth, will give you > 'answers' that involve the archetypal effect of the drug PLUS whatever you > are imagining laid over the top? >> >> Comp is not just testable, it is improvable, but to play fair the game, and >> keep the comp qualia/quanta distinction, the improvement should not just be >> based with the experimental facts, but with the arithmetical formulation of >> the measure problem. >> >> Consciousness is not located in the brain. > > > Oh really? Did you forget your logician hat this morning then? You do this a > lot but when I mentioned that you did the other day, you said you didn't > believe me. Do you believe me now? > > >> It is a "quasi-arithmetical" notion, like "arithmetical truth itself". Its >> differentiation will make it seemingly related to special representations, >> but that might be transitory, and the uniqueness of them is a delusion. >> >> You said you don't believe in comp, and I guess you meant that you believe >> that comp is untrue, isn't it? What is your opinion on Everett? > > Bruno, I just think it's nuts that you can be in a conversation with someone > for this long and not know key high level aspects of that person's opinion > relevant to the actual conversation. I acknowledge it isn't easy to grasp the > distinctions another person makes....but I've made that effort with > you.....why haven't you made that effort with me? I'm going to have to answer > another response from you on the consciousness thread, in which you simply > have not understood the distinctions I make about falsification at any depth > If you would make that effort, spend actual time reflecting...we could nail > this conversation, and then if we wanted to (both) move on to possibly > understanding more about your steps. Possibly. > >> I think you told us that you reject it? I am not sure. If you reject Everett >> it is normal that you reject comp. > > Yes I definitely don't accept MWI. I've explained why in the past. there are > massive unrealized assumptions involved in construction of MwI. I've listed > some key ones...no one has addressed them...MWI is unreliable knowledge while > they are in place. > >> (Note that Crick use comp in the paper, and indeed it is common in that >> field, even Hameroff use comp (only Penrose suggested a non-comp theory, >> where indeed gravitation collapse the wave in a way non predictible by QM). >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >>> On 28 May 2014, at 17:23, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> they were more likely to believe they were in an environment completely >>> different from the physical space they were actually in -----> sounds >>> familiar >>> they often believed to be interacting with "beings" such as hallucinated >>> dead people, aliens, fairies or mythical creatures ------> machines >>> the often reported "ego dissolution", a variety of experiences in which the >>> self ceased to exist in the user's subjective experience. ------> 3p? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Is the key to consciousness in the claustrum? >>> >>> by Klaus M. Stiefel, The Conversation >>> >>> >>> The location of the claustrum (blue) and the cingulate cortex (green), >>> another brain region likely to act as a global integrator. The person whose >>> brain is shown is looking to the right (see the inset in the top right >>> corner). Credit: Brain …more >>> Consciousness is one of the most fascinating and elusive phenomena we >>> humans face. Every single one of us experiences it but it remains >>> surprisingly poorly understood. >>> >>> >>> That said, psychology, neuroscience and philosophy are currently making >>> interesting progress in the comprehension of this phenomenon. >>> The main player in this story is something called the claustrum. The word >>> originally described an enclosed space in medieval European monasteries but >>> in the mammalian brain it refers to a small sheet of neurons just below the >>> cortex, and possibly derived from it in brain development. >>> The cortex is the massive folded layer on top of the brain mainly >>> responsible for many higher brain functions such as language, long-term >>> planning and our advanced sensory functions. >>> Interestingly, the claustrum is strongly reciprocally connected to many >>> cortical areas. The visual cortex (the region involved in seeing) sends >>> axons (the connecting "wires" of the nervous system) to the claustrum, and >>> also receives axons from the claustrum. >>> The same is true for the auditory cortex (involved in hearing) and a number >>> of other cortex areas. A wealth of information converges in the claustrum >>> and leaves it to re-enter the cortex. >>> The connection >>> Francis Crick – who together with James Watson gave us the structure of DNA >>> – was interested in a connection between the claustrum and consciousness. >>> In a recent paper, published in Frontiers in Integrative Neuroscience, we >>> have built on the ideas he described in his very last scientific >>> publication. >>> >>> Crick and co-author Christoph Koch argued that the claustrum could be a >>> coordinator of cortical function and hence a "conductor of consciousness". >>> Such percepts as colour, form, sound, body position and social relations >>> are all represented in different parts of the cortex. How are they bound to >>> a unified experience of consciousness? Wouldn't a region exerting a (even >>> limited) central control over all these cortical areas be highly useful? >>> This is what Crick and Koch suggested when they hypothesised the claustrum >>> to be a "conductor of consciousness". But how could this hypothesis about >>> the claustrum's role be tested? >>> Plant power alters the mind >>> >>> Salvia divinorum (Herba de Maria). Credit: Wikipedia, CC BY >>> Enter the plant Salvia divinorum, a type of mint native to Mexico. The >>> Mazatecs civilisation's priests would chew its leaves to get in touch with >>> the gods. >>> It's a powerful psychedelic, but not of the usual type. Substances such as >>> LSD andpsylocibin (the active compound in "magic" mushrooms) mainly act by >>> binding to the serotonin neuromodulator receptor proteins. >>> It is not completely understood how these receptors bring about altered >>> states of consciousness, but a reduction of the inhibitory (negative >>> feedback) communication between neurons in the cortex likely plays a role. >>> In contrast, Salvia divinorum acts on the kappa-opiate receptors. These are >>> structurally related, but their activation has quite different effects than >>> the mu-opiate receptorswhich bind substances such as morphine or heroin. >>> In contrast to the mu-opiate receptors, which are involved in the >>> processing of pain, the role of the kappa-opiate receptors is somewhat >>> poorly understood. >>> Where are these kappa-opiate receptors located in the brain? You might have >>> guessed it, they are most densely concentrated in the claustrum (and >>> present at lower densities in a number of other brain regions such as the >>> frontal cortex and the amygdala). >>> So, the activity of Salvia likely inhibits the claustrum via its activation >>> of the kappa-opiate receptors. Consuming Salvia might just cause the >>> inactivation of the claustrum necessary to test Crick and Koch's hypothesis. >>> Any volunteers? >>> Did we administer this psychedelic to a group of volunteers to then record >>> their hallucinations and altered perceptions? Well, no. To get ethics >>> approval for such an experiment with a substance outlawed in Australia >>> would be near impossible. >>> While Salvia is not known to be toxic or addictive, the current societal >>> climate is not very sympathetic towards psychoactive substances other than >>> alcohol. >>> But fortunately we had an alternative. The website Erowid.org hosts a >>> database of many thousand trip reports, submitted by psychedelic >>> enthusiasts, describing often in considerable detail what went on in their >>> minds when consuming a wide selection of substances. >>> We analysed trip reports from this website written by folks who had >>> consumed Salvia divinorum and, for comparison, LSD. >>> We found that subjects consuming Salvia were more likely to experience a >>> few select psychological effects: >>> they were more likely to believe they were in an environment completely >>> different from the physical space they were actually in >>> they often believed to be interacting with "beings" such as hallucinated >>> dead people, aliens, fairies or mythical creatures >>> the often reported "ego dissolution", a variety of experiences in which the >>> self ceased to exist in the user's subjective experience. >>> … and this means? >>> >>> Altered surroundings, other beings and ego dissolution – this surely hints >>> at a disturbance of the "conductor of consciousness", as expected if the >>> conductor claustrum is perturbed by Salvia divinorum. >>> If a region central to the integration of consciously represented >>> information is disturbed in its function, we would expect fundamental >>> disturbances in the conscious experience. The core of a person's >>> consciousness seems to be altered by Salvia divinorum, rather than merely >>> some distortions of vision or audition. >>> We believe that the psychological effects of Salvia divinorum, together >>> with the massive concentration of the kappa-opiate receptors (the target >>> molecules of Salvia divinorum) in the claustrum support its role as a >>> central coordinator of consciousness. >>> It's worth noting that our results were not black-and-white. The users of >>> LSD also experienced (albeit to a lesser degree) translation into altered >>> environments, fairies and ego dissolution. >>> This, together with a review of the literature convinced us that the >>> claustrum is one of the conductors of consciousness, with brain areas >>> cingulate cortex and pulvinar likely being the other ones. >>> Still, the claustrum appears to be special in the brain's connectivity and >>> we think thatSalvia can inactivate it. We hope that the experimental >>> neuroscience community will take advantage of the window into the mind >>> which this unique substance provides. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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