On 13 Jan 2015, at 05:29, 'Roger' via Everything List wrote:
Bruno,
Hi.
I'd like to propose that we get back to the subject of
discussing our ideas on how the universe works, why it's here, etc.,
And if there is one. Normally, we already have debated that if there
is no magic operating in the brain (another way to assume
computationalism, once we assume Church-Turing thesis), then the
physical universe is a first person plural sort of hallucination,
and we must derived the laws of physics from the laws of thought
(Boole and Boolos, say).
Roger: Even if the universe is a hallucination, purely based on
thought, or a computer simulation, where does the hallucination,
thought, or computer come from in the first place.
It comes from the relations which exist among the natural numbers. You
can even restrain the relations to the one which provably exist in
simple Turing-universal theories.
Then we can explain, indeed all machines can explain, why it is
impossible to explain the existence of a Turing-universal system,
without assuming a Turing-universal system, so we have to assume at
least one of them. I assume arithmetic, because it is the one which
everyone is familiarized to, by high school studies. (Since the
failure of logicism, we know that we cannot derived the numbers from
logic alone).
I have to admit I have a hard time going with the idea of Platonism
or mathematical constructs existing somewhere that no one can see or
test. I sure can't rule it out, but I'd like to be able to know
where it is.
Where? You seem to assume a sort of geometry at the start, but with
computationalism, geometry is among the emergent phenomena.
"Where" does not apply to numbers, except in the large sense of being
between two numbers, with the usual ordering (defined by x < y if Ez(x
+z = y)).
All you need to believe in is that proposition like (786899543211 is
prime or is not prime) is true independently of you and me. Of course
by 786899543211, I mean the number denoted by this base ten
description of a natural number. Are you OK with this? that type of
assumption is weaker than the assumption most scientist are doing when
using mathematics in their domain. The arithmetical
"platonism" (realism) used in computationalism is the same amount
than the one used in computer science, physics, etc.
--------------------
To start, I'd like to propose the following: We all have
different views on the question "Why there is something rather than
nothing?", if that question even has value, how the universe works,
etc. I think it's safe to say that, unless you're an academic, our
ideas are also routinely ignored, criticized and made fun of by
academics.
Not really. I defended a thesis in mathematics, on the neceesary
mininal common (to all machines) amount of theology, and got no
problem in academies, except for some rare one, known for defending
religious conviction (usually of the atheists type). Those just
ignore facts, proofs, and argument, and I have been unable to ever
met them. But most academicians don't take them seriously, despite
some bad local influence they have on the media.
Roger: Well, I admit not all academics make fun of amateurs, but a
lot do. I'm happy that you've had better luck than me. I've had a
few very nice academics give constructive feedback and comments, but
they are few and far between.
-------------------------
I suggest you read my paper sane04
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
Roger: I'll look this up tonight. Thanks!
You are welcome. Don't hesitate to ask any question, or make any
critics.
Bruno
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