On 20 May 2015, at 09:23, Samiya Illias wrote:
Well, if you wish, we all could read together the Quran verse by
verse on this list and discuss our understanding of what the verse
is saying. With our diverse backgrounds, we can certainly share our
insights - Platonist, Aristotelian, Scientific, Etc. and perhaps
find and focus on what's common in our beliefs.
We will run into difficulties.
Unless you agree with the arithmetical lexicon provided by the self-
introspecting machine. In which case, by stretching the sense
moderately, we can say something. (god = truth, devil = false, soul =
self+god, matter = self-+realities, etc.)
But it might not be so well for the Quran.
Take the verse:
3:4 "And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the
verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in
Might, the Owner of Retribution."
That might be interpreted as a deep theological truth, in the
machine's religion, but there is a big problem, because that
particular statement if theologically true remains non communicable,
not even assertable.
It says that truth is revealed, and that disbelieving it leads you to
a big problem. Basically []f -> f, which is true, but not justifiable,
not even (and especially) as axiom, as it makes you inconsistent.
And that inconsistency can be exploited by blasphemous people using it
to punish (before God!) those they estimate not believing, in their
sense, to the parole of the prophet.
It transforms one of the deeper religious truth into a devilish
argument-per-authority.
It is a common problem with "sacred text". When human deemed a text
"sacred", they do actually a blaspheme, and in practice it means "shut
up and calculate".
There are things, notably the divine one, which go without saying, and
get stuck in cultural representation, when said.
Truth is beyond texts, Samiya, religion requires "intelligence" in its
most etymological sense: the ability to read in *between* the lines.
Enlightenment might be easy, compared to the task of helping the
others from that, which is very complex, subtle and perilous. Hell is
paved with good intentions. We have also, in G* \ G: [](~[]f) -> f.
Don't take this too much literally, of course, even if this admit an
arithmetical interpretation, it is still a toy theology, of an ideally
correct platonist machine. Yet we can listen to them, and not dismiss
them too quickly too. They have the advantage of having much less
prejudices than us.
Bruno
Samiya
On 19-May-2015, at 3:33 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 18 May 2015, at 18:15, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 18-May-2015, at 7:24 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 13 May 2015, at 08:23, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 12-May-2015, at 9:39 pm, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 May 2015 at 14:29, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
1) The Quran reminds us that humans have been made Incharge of
Earth and hence are responsible for the welfare of the Earth
and all in it
2) The Quran also tells us that we will be held accountable for
all that we've been gifted with, hence the more worldly riches
or power one has, the greater the responsibility and the
greater the accountability
So yes, it speaks of all of us and says that every action,
intention, everything is being recorded and will be replayed
and the criminals will not be able to say anything, rather
their bodies will bear witness against themselves. Humans will
be recompensed in full in complete justice, and nobody will be
wronged in the least.
It's a nice fantasy, at least. As opposed to the (apparent)
reality that rich people can screw everyone else, each other,
and the planet, and still make out like bandits.
That is why I suppose facts about creation have been mentioned
across the Quran so that those who doubt its authenticity can
study and assess for themselves whether this message is from the
One who created, knows and is in perfect control of everything
to the minutest detail, and is therefore able to carry out His
Will and keep His Promise, or if this is just a fantasy.
The greeks, may be not so much the indians, got the same idea/
fantazy. The idea that God is Good.
With comp, good is a protagorean virtue: it obeys []x -> ~x
But what is good?
Can a God be good and accepts that one of its creature kills
another of its creature ... in its Name?
Can a teacher be good who sets an exam for his students, allows
the students to refer to the textbook and patiently allows the
students time to attempt the exam?
Can an movie maker be good who assigns roles to the characters,
gives them the script, and then let's them enact their roles?
Can an employer be good who sets mock assignments (aptitude tests)
for his prospective employees, and then gives them the liberty to
execute it, and only later appraises them for their actions?
The students', the actors' and the potential employees'
performance in their exam, movie or mock assignment determines
their future potential and possible career.
If we consider this life as the only life and death as a finality,
then of course the perspective is different. But if we realise
that it's just the end of the trial, then the perspective changes
completely.
With comp you already sin once you feel superior, or inferior,
with respect to Her/It/He.
It's not about feeling superior or inferior, it's about realising
that we are the 'creation' and God is the 'Creator'. It's about
being Just and Justice cannot be a sin.
Do you take for granted that the Homo Sapiens is the favorite
creature of God?
Never claimed to be the favourite. Perhaps among the favoured
creation, but certainly not the only one.
Does Arithmetical truth loves the Löbian numbers? Ttruth is
certainly an attractor for the löbian numbers.
??
God is good,
I agree! Thank you :)
but with comp both of them are undefinable, and you might sin by
deciding what is good and bad by using publicly its Name.
Everyone knows the difference between good and bad
I think it's called Conscience
(it is like the difference between eating a fruit and being
burned),
Like Garden of Eden and Fire of Hell?
but above that you have to open your mind on how others talk
about God, and concentrate on what is common, and discard the
difference.
Reality is beyond the Fairy tales, indeed it is even beyond the
correct humans' and machine's theories.
Yes, we have been given very little knowledge, most of it is
unknown.
With comp it is almost obvious that any finite text on God can
only be a lie. God is beyond texts.
Maybe comp is 'almost obviously' wrong? The Creator who created us
to the exact cellular and atomic detail, can the same Creator not
also provide a User Manual? After all, the scriptures are not
'about God', they are about humans!
Texts can help, but texts can delude, also, especially if you
attach yourself with literal interpretations.
God, who created in us the ability to speak and express ourselves
in word and in writing, can express and communicate better than we
can. There is no need to philosophise the scriptures. Literal
readings are our best chance to attempt to understand the message
of the scriptures.
In the middle-east, people have discussed the Plato/Aristotle
view longer than in Occident, and the influence of Plato, and
thus of that open-mindness toward both reason and mysticism, is
quite palpable. But the Jews, with Maimonides, and most
christians and muslims will depart from Plato at some point. It
is unclear to me if the Quran departs a lot from Plato, per se,
but the current understanding of it is mainly Aristotelian. For
that reason, it is mainly incompatible with comp, unlike the
neoplatonist theologies.
It's okay if the scriptures are incompatible with some human
theory. Humans are still discovering, learning and improving their
understanding. May God grant us the knowledge to better understand
the scripture. Amen.
God might give many path, but I doubt he would be happy with people
creating intermediate authorities in the field.
Lao-Tze wrote that those who know remain silent.
Trust God for the teaching, and be skeptical on all things done by
humans in that domain.
If you like texts, read them all, and compare.
Be aware that a neoplatonist reading of the Quran, and other texts,
might be more different than an aristotelian reading of it or them.
Bruno
Samiya
Bruno
Samiya
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
it, send an email to everything-list
+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list
.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-
list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
