On 30 Aug 2015, at 03:08, Russell Standish wrote:
Well as people probably know, I don't believe C. elegans can be
conscious in any sense of the word. Hell - I have strong doubts about
ants, and they're massively more complex creatures.
I think personally that C. Elegans, and Planaria (!), even amoeba, are
conscious, although very plausibly not self-conscious.
I tend to think since 2008 that even RA is already conscious, even
maximally so, and that PA is already as much self-conscious than a
human (when in some dissociative state).
But I don't know if PA is more or less conscious than RA. That depends
of the role of the higher part of the brain consists in filtering
consciousness or enacting it.
But it probably won't be long before we simulate a mouse brain in toto
- about 2 decades is my guess, maybe even less given enough dollars -
then we're definitely in grey philosophical territory :).
I am slightly less optimistic than you. It will take one of two
decades before we simulate the hippocampus of a rat, but probably more
time will be needed for the rest of their brain. And the result can be
a conscious creature, with a quite different consciousness that a rat,
as I find plausible that pain are related to the glial cells and their
metabolism, which are not taken into account by the current "copies".
One intersting test I'd like to see is applying Tononi's integrated
information measure to these simple creatures to see if they're
producing any integrated information. I suspect Integrated Information
is a necessary requirement for conscious, but not so sure about
sufficiency.
It is offred freely with the notion of self-reference, I would say.
The eight hypostases/persons-pov constitute each a different mode of
the self-integration. If Kauffman's idea that the DNA results from
something akin to Kleene's diagonalization (which I think too) the
amoeba and most protozoans are already quite self-integrated being.
Then elementary invertebrates might loose that integration (like
perhaps hydra), but quickly get it back, like with planaria.
I guess that you remember that I am not yet convinced by your argument
that ants are not conscious, as it relies on anthropic use of the
Absolute Self-Sampling Assumption (ASSA) which I prefer to avoid
because the domain of its statistic is not clear to me. (I am not
impressed by the doomsday argument for the same reason).
Bruno
Cheers
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 09:00:14AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 29 Aug 2015, at 00:43, Jason Resch wrote:
I think so. It is at least as conscious as C. Elegans.
Assuming that the worm comp substitution level of neuronal
connection is the correct choice.
Low level animals behavior might rely heavily on smell and other
chemical interaction, and I am not sure what the sensor represents
in the robots represent, as C. Elegans is blind (I think).
Hard to really conclude it is thinking from the video, and
theoretically, we can't never be sure. It might be a philosophical
worm zombie!
Bruno
Jason
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 6:21 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 8/28/2015 3:00 PM, Jason wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_i1NKPzbjM
So what do you think? Is it conscious?
Bremt
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