On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 11:43 AM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Information is physical. > > > True, and nothing physical can be transferred faster than light so we > can never effect things more distant than 13.8 billion light years > and they can never effect us. > > >> > >> If there is no transfer of information > > > It is not always necessary to transfer information for 2 things to be > identical. There are only a finite number of ways a finite number of atoms > can be arranged in a finite volume, so if the universe is infinite and not > just very very big then a gargantuan (but still finite) number of light > years away there must be a collection of atoms identical to > Bruce Kellett > , in fact there are an infinite number of them. And at even larger (but > still finite) distances a volume of space with a radius of 13.8 billion > light years centered on one of those > Bruce Kellett > s is identical to the > volume of space with a radius of 13.8 billion light years centered on > this > Bruce Kellett > . And there are an infinite number of them too. > > > >> there is no way one could test what the copy thought. > > > There is no way to know directly what your next door neighbor is > thinking but you can usually make a pretty good guess, and if a copy of you > is physically identical to you then it's a pretty good guess he's thinking > the same thing you are. > > John K Clark > > > > Well Said. Jason > > > > > > On 3/10/2015 1:52 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> >> On 2 Oct 2015, at 4:28 PM, Bruce Kellett < <[email protected]> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> I think you are continuing to confuse the issues between local copies, >> obeying the laws of physics and information transfer, and remote copies >> outside our particle horizon. The latter are of absolutely no relevance to >> me here-and-now because there is no possibility of information transfer. >> >> >> Remote copies are still copies. If a copy of you were made in the >> Andromeda Galaxy a billion years hence, it would still *by definition* >> think it was you despite being made of different matter, despite it being >> far removed in space and time, despite it possibly having no physical >> connection with you. >> >> That is still within the forward light cone, so information could be >> transmitted. Information is physical. If there is no transfer of >> information, there is no way one could test what the copy thought. >> Alternatively, what could it possibly mean for the 'copy' to think -- I am >> the person that was born in another galaxy a million years ago? Perhaps >> people think crazy things like that all the time, but they are usually put >> away so that they can do no more harm to themselves. >> >> Suppose you're told that according whatever criteria you have defined you >> were *inadequately* copied last night in your sleep. You believe you're >> Bruce Kellett, have his memories, look like him, and everyone who knew >> Bruce agrees that he seems to be the same guy. However, the atoms just >> weren't put in place using the right procedure, whatever that might be. >> What difference does the knowledge of this deficit make to you? What >> difference does it make to anyone else? >> >> >> How does such an implausible scenario differ from the observation that I >> sloughed off some flakes of skin during the night, some cells died, and >> some new cells grew, nourished by the food I ate for dinner last night? >> Minor changes do not disrupt bodily continuity, and all these changes are >> subject to the laws of physics, so are completely traceable and >> understandable. >> >> >> Yes, but as far as I can tell you think that there is some possible >> scenario where your psychological continuity is preserved in the sense I >> have described but physical continuity is not preserved. >> >> No, I don't think that. I think 'psychological continuity' is an empty >> phrase when there is no physical information transfer. >> >> For example, if the copy is made using random processes, or by >> exhaustively emulating every possible human. What difference would it make >> to you or to anyone who knows you if the duplication had occurred in such a >> way? >> >> You can duplicate that way all you like. But then you abandon all >> possibility of connecting your computational theory of mind with real-world >> physics. >> >> Whatever arbitrary scenario you come up with, you cannot find anything >> that puts any serious dent in the closest continuer theory of personal >> identity, and your idea of "psychological continuity" is easily shown to be >> a nonsense for copies outside our light cone. >> >> >> "Closest continuer theory" is an embarrassment to philosophy. It's >> something a ten year old might come up with - then a few minutes later >> realise how silly it is. Sorry to put it in such blunt John Clark-like >> terms. >> >> >> Psychological continuity as a definition of personal identity is plain >> crazy. >> >> Bruce >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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