On 26/04/2017 9:39 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Bruce Kellett
Not at all. Physics does not assume arithmetic or mathematics, it derives
them.
Give the proof, then.
It's "vaporware science", just like the first principles that explain
emergentism. People allude to these things, but you can never seem to
find the relevant article... :)
That is just an empty personal attack. I do not call it an "ad hominem" for
good reason. I suggest that both you and Bruno look up the meaning of an "ad
hominem" argument.
I apologise for the personal attack.
I accept your apology. People tend to be a little thin-skinned sometimes
and read personal attacks where noe was intended.
Give us the meat of your arguments and I promise to read with an open
mind. In my case, I am mostly interested in the first principles that
allow you to claim that consciousness emerges from complex
interactions between physical entities.
The issue at stake here appears to be whether arithmetic (and
mathematics) can be derived form physics, or has to have some
non-physical origin. As I said to Bruno a short time ago, the derivation
of this result is epistemological rather than logical. In other words,
there is no formal proof, but rather an observation as to how things
actually happen in practice. We just have to consider how a baby learns
numbers -- by interacting with physical objects, be they play blocks
with pretty pictures and number on them, or be they just stones in the
yard. By manipulating physical objects, we learn about numbers, and the
rules that govern them. Similarly, geometry and trigonometry arose from
the necessity to measure plots of land for competing landowner
interests. Mathematics is, at base, an intensely practical subject that
arises out of our experience of the physical world.
The formalization of mathematics into an abstract system follows much
later from this initial epistemological encounter.
The idea that consciousness supervenes on the physical brain is, again,
an idea that arises from experience. We experience the effects of drugs
such as alcohol on our brain, and the corresponding effects on
consciousness. We are aware of the consequences of brain injury,
strokes, concussion, neurological degeneration, and so on. So the idea
that consciousness supervenes on the physical brain is not in any way
controversial. If changes to the brain affect consciousness in such a
direct way, it is natural to conclude that consciousness is associated
with brain states, or, more formally, that consciousness supervenes on
the physical brain.
Bruce
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