On 12/15/2017 9:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 13 Dec 2017, at 22:23, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/13/2017 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
The coin does not start in a state of the kind {|heads> + |tails>},
but it starts with a state of having mulitiple positions and
multiple momenta, spreaded in the multiverse according to the
Heisenberg Uncertainty. The tiny difference in the position can lead
to different bouncing in the box, and so, by shaking it a long time
enough, I don’t see why we could avoid a superposition of head and
tails eventually.
Decoherence is waaay faster than the time for the coin to cross the
box from one impact to another, so I don't see how a superposition
could develop from shaking the box.
But you just said:
<<
On 13 Dec 2017, at 22:15, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/13/2017 2:45 AM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
*BUT for a nucleus of a radioactive element, the nucleus is never
Decayed and Undecayed SIMULTANEOUSLY.*
Sure it is. It's in a coherent superposition of those states until
it interacts with the environment.
>>
That is true FAPP, but in the MW, there is no collapse of the wave,
and the coherent superposition does not disappear, it just spead on
the environment itself, making the people belonging to those
environment perceiving something like a collapse, or like a divine
choice (where of course a mechanist knows that it could be nothing
more than a first person comp indeterminacy).
In the 3p view of the universal wave (or just the global one involving
the coin and the shaker of the coin), the superposition is spreaded,
What superposition? In the shaken coin in a box, the coin starts in a
known state, e.g. heads, and the question is whether the shaking puts it
into a superposition |heads>+|tails> or whether the evolution of its
state is classical. I think it is a question of time and amplification
of quantum effects at each impact with the walls of the box. If the
box+coin is isolated there is some time that would be sufficient to
produce a superposition. But in fact the box is not isolated. The box
too is interacting with the environment. So it's like the Zeno effect.
Although there is a probability at each impact of producing a coherent
tails component, those components don't sum to a finite component over a
finite number of impacts.
Brent
indeed very quickly to all the material objects interacting with the
coin, already inside the box. The decoherence time is only the time
the universe differentiatesn and indeed, it does that very quickly,
but this does not change the fact that the differentiation is not
enough big to lead to full quasi orthogonal tail + head state after
shaking the device (box + coin) long enough.
Bruno
Brent
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