On 19 Dec 2017, at 22:40, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/19/2017 9:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 18 Dec 2017, at 07:17, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/17/2017 7:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
But in fact the box is not isolated.
Oh? Just isolate the whole universe. That should be easy.
The box too is interacting with the environment. So it's like
the Zeno effect. Although there is a probability at each impact
of producing a coherent tails component, those components don't
sum to a finite component over a finite number of impacts.
The Zeno effect makes you "staying statistically" in the
universe, like the non-isolation of the box makes you impossible
to have access to the universe where the coin felt on the
opposite side, but without collapse, the superposition can simply
never disappear.
I can never disappear, but it cannot reach a significant
probability for tails in several ages of the universe.
I am not good with unities. My last attempt to evaluate the time to
get the six outcomes of a dice, in a lattice version of the problem
lead to only few minutes. When I have the time and the courage, I
will compute that again. Note that the wall was an irregular
lattice, to ensure that the dices did not get trapped in a cycle.
It did use some "quantum chaos" idea if I remember well. Of course,
we do agree that there is no quantum chaos, and everything is
reversible, but all explanations that this still plays a role FAPP,
by partial tracing out + big numbers, can be translated into the
"many-world" as explanation of how feeling the splits and keeping
trace of the "other terms of the wave) is close to impossible.
I might be wrong on this. No problem. Shaking the box for several
ages of the universe would astonished me (and force me to revise
quantum chaos theory, if not the prime numbers!). Or it could be my
poor handling of the scientific notation of real numbers, common
for *some* "pure mathematician" (yellow grin).
Keep in mind that all object diffuse, so, even without shacking the
dice, if we wait long enough, it diffuses so as we get in few
shakings the six alternate worlds, but I guess that in this case,
we do have to wait a very long time. The bouncing of the dies are
crucial, as is the shape of the box.
But remember that you have to consider the classical processes as
well, which compete with quantum diffusion.
Relatively to the mind of each multiple observers. OK. But that is
what brings the superposed macro-differences.
You may say, "Well it's all quantum." but that's not to the point.
The classical processes are different in that they can, in
principle, be measured without changing them by making measurements
on the environment.
OK. So our problem is only on the quantitative. We might tackle it one
day.
Bruno
Brent
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