> On 17 Jun 2019, at 00:38, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2019 at 7:19 AM Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be > <mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be>> wrote: > > >> I give metaphysics all the respect it deserves. > > > If you did, you would more clearly make precise that you assume a physical > > reality. > > I could understand what you mean by "physical reality" if you could just > answer the following question. If there was a physical reality how would > things be different from if there was not a physical reality?
You would need to explain what that physical reality is, and how it selects your computational histories in arithmetic. Adding a physical reality in the ontological assumption makes things more complex, but it is still what most materialist do. With mechanism, there is no ontological physical reality, which means that the physical science are reduced to another science. With mechanism that other science is elementary arithmetic as seen from the internal arithmetical programs executed in virtue of the (sigma_1) number relations. > > > if we assume Mechanism, then such a physical reality has no sense. > > Perhaps so I don't know because I don't know what “Mechanism" So let us stop here. Tell me what you don’t understand in the Mechanist hypothesis. It isa bit frightening given that you are the only Mechanist practionners (alive) on this list. > or "physical reality" means in Brunospeak. And avoid this, because that is ad hominem in the extreme. Bruno > You say a clock is not an example of a mechanism but a textbook on computer > science is. You say the ASCII sequence "SKK" is not a example if a mechanism > but the ASCII sequence SKK is If a clock isn't a mechanism then a car isn't > one either and mechanics don't work on machines. > > > The belief in a God or in a Universe is logically incompatible with the > > assumption of Mechanism. > > Over the years I have managed to learn a few words of Brunospeak and in that > language "God" means a grey amorphous blob of unspecified size that need not > be intelligent or conscious; it's hard to see how that could be logically > incompatible with much of anything. It's even harder to understand how > something as dull as that could be of interest to anyone or anything. > > > Mechanism is the assumption that we can survive a digital brain transplant > > operation copying, > > OK, at last you've said something that is clear! By that definition I am a > firm believer in mechanism except that assumptions were not involved. I know > for a fact it is true because I know for a fact I have survived from the day > I was born to today, and every day since I was born I have been undergoing a > brain transplant operation, atoms are constantly shifting out of my brain and > new atoms shifting in to replace them. My brain is made out of last year's > mashed potatoes. > > > you mean no examples of “a mechanism”? I gave infinitely many of them, all > > the “i” in the phi_i gives example of mechanism, if you know what the phi_i > > represents. > > So you want to know if the physical neurons in my physical brain in my > physical head that sits atop my physical smolders are arranged in a pattern > that encodes information about that particular mathematical notation, because > otherwise phi_i would not correspond to any mathematical idea at all. The > answer is yes and so it does convey meaning to me. But by itself the "phi_i" > can have a thought or perform a calculation just about as well as the word > "cow" can produce milk. > > > Make step 3 less simple (aka less stupid) and we can continue. > > You are the one who has systematically recast it with less precision. When > > the precision are added you > > Precision?! You can't even specify who the referent is in the personal > pronouns you use wall to wall in the mess that you claim is a proof. > > >> I have no idea if I believe in what you call "physicalism" or not > because I don't know what you mean by mechanism. > > > YD + CT > > IHA > > > you have already given 80,000 dollars to a doctor. > > Yes. > > > You are a mechanist practitioners. > > OK, but in Brunospeak does that also mean I'm a physicalism practitioner? > Can you be one but not the other or are they synonyms? > > > You might have missed some of my earlier post, > > Yeah i missed that post of yours, and you missed my post where I proved P=NP > and the Riemann hypothesis. I posted it the same day you posted your > wonderful post you've been talking about for the last 10 years that solves > all metaphysical problems. > > > this was an idea by Aristotle, in contradiction with Pythagorus and Plato. > > Bruno, do you really think if you throw enough ancient Greeks at me who > didn't know where the sun went at night I'll change my views concerning > modern physics and mathematics? > > >> You haven't given ANY details about how an ASCII sequence by itself can > >> make a calculation because you don't know any details, > > > Which one? > > # 42 > > >> if you did you'd be the richest most powerful man who ever lived. In fact > >> you wouldn't be a man you'd be a God. > > > You talk like if the discovery of computation in arithmetic would lead > > automatically to their implementation in some physical reality. > > I talk like that because that is precisely what would happen UNLESS physics > can do something that mathematics can't. And since you clearly are not a God > I must conclude that physics can indeed do something that mathematics can't. > > > you need to implement the computer in the physical reality. That is > obvious. > > Exactly. And from that observation the only logical conclusion is physics is > more fundamental than mathematics. > > > But that would not have been possible without the discovery made by > Tiuring and others > > True, you can't just slap together matter in any old way and expect it to > perform a calculation, but there is a way it can be done and Turing taught us > what it was.. > > John K Clark > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv3Am0a%3D110eO%3DTDqqV%3D%2BsdLzvjJM7q%2B_NvwxzTQTD3Tzw%40mail.gmail.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv3Am0a%3D110eO%3DTDqqV%3D%2BsdLzvjJM7q%2B_NvwxzTQTD3Tzw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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