> On 26 Sep 2019, at 02:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 9/25/2019 8:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 24 Sep 2019, at 17:44, Philip Thrift <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:23:10 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>>> On 24 Sep 2019, at 10:22, Philip Thrift <[email protected] <javascript:>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 3:05:39 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 1:36:42 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 8:44:39 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/23/2019 6:24 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 3:44:49 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/23/2019 11:59 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>>>> But other quantum experts use decoherence to explain quantum phenomena >>>>>> without invoking multiple universes. >>>>> >>>>> "Without invoking" doesn't mean "denying". >>>>> >>>>> It does if you believe in applying Occam's Razor. AG >>>> >>>> True. But I'm still waiting for pt to quote this expert saying he >>>> explains quantum phenomena without MW. He keeps implying it's Zurek, but >>>> I just read Zurek's paper on quantum Darwinism again and ISTM Zurek is >>>> assuming MWI throughout. QD is just his solution to the basis problem. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Zurek is not on a book tour, nor does he tweet, but after the rollout of >>>> Carroll's book, one can only conclude: >>>> >>>> Many Worlds is religion, not science. >>>> >>>> @philipthrift >>>> >>>> Right. You'll notice how my comment that the MWI is tantamount to "hubris >>>> on steroids" was never responded to. Hopefully, he'll be denied tenure, >>>> and his book and personage can go into the dustbin of history, where it >>>> belongs. AG >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I can't believe (well, I guess I can believe) the number of physicist who >>>> think MWI is a valuable contribution to science. If you tell them >>>> otherwise they they you that you don't understand physics. Many Worlds is >>>> "in the math" (as Sean Carroll claims) so it must be true. >>>> >>>> They engage in magical thinking, but think they are doing science. Amazing. >>> >>> The many-histories is a logical consequence of the theory. To assume a >>> theory without accepting its consequence is just wrong, or irrational. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Which specific theory formulation are you talking about? >> >> Any formulation without physical wave reduction. Everett’s one, for example. >> With our without the Born rules (the fact that they are derivable or not is >> not much relevant, as you know I do think that Gleason theorem makes them >> derivable, but that is not relevant here). >> >> >> >>> >>> There's quantum measure theory: >>> >>> Axioms in section 2: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1002.0589.pdf >>> <https://arxiv.org/pdf/1002.0589.pdf> >> That is a very interesting paper. >> >> >>> >>> But I don't see where Many Worlds as Carroll presents them are necessarily >>> implied by these axioms. >> >> They are implied by the SWE, or Dirac. May be the best argument is that the >> founder have invented the notion of collapse because that is the only way to >> avoid them. >> >> QM predict that I f I put cat in the state dead + alive, and if I look at >> the cat living/dead state, I will put myself in the state >> seeing-the-cat-dead + seeing the cat-alive, and without a wave reduction >> postulate, no branche of that superposition can be made more real or less >> real than the other. >> >> I don’t need quantum mechanics to bet on many-world: like Deutsch I consider >> that the two slit experiment is enough. > > I think the alternative is something suggested by Zurek. He shows that > decoherence plus einselection will make the reduced density matrix strictly > diagonal, i.e. he solves the preferred basis and derivation of the Born rule.
OK. > Then he suggests, but doesn't really argue, that the universe cannot have > enough information to realize all the non-zero states on the diagonal and so > only a few can be realized and that realization is per the Born rule. This > is what Carroll would dismiss as a "disappearing world interpretation”; Me too. > but it would provide a physical principle for why worlds disappear, i.e. > branches of lowest probability are continually pruned. The problem is that they are lowest only in special circumstances, and if I prepare the a photon in the relevant state normalised by sqrt(2), like sending it on a sem-tranparent mirror, both “worlds” have high probabilities (1/2). Only the “aberrant” worlds disappears, it seems to me. Bruno > > Brent > >> >> And, as you know, I don’t need this either. I don’t assume any worlds, I do >> prove that arithmetic entails the existence of all computation, and that the >> many-worlds aspect of the physical reality is the “natural” way the >> universal machine/number see arithmetic from “inside arithmetic” (i.e. >> inside the standard model of arithmetic). >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> @philipthrift >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d3cd0dab-58b7-4c1e-893f-f9c7821f9735%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d3cd0dab-58b7-4c1e-893f-f9c7821f9735%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/320E1203-3593-47D9-9654-DF94753C72E7%40ulb.ac.be >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/320E1203-3593-47D9-9654-DF94753C72E7%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d88b60a9-04e8-5ccb-63c2-cfb3b80df6c2%40verizon.net > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d88b60a9-04e8-5ccb-63c2-cfb3b80df6c2%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/42DA70A4-139D-48E2-A623-0C92D1F1B125%40ulb.ac.be.
