On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:32:32 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 4:50:12 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 5:34:42 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 3:31:31 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>>> >>>> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 8:13:22 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 7:05:12 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 8:01:49 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 6:59:35 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 9:54 AM Alan Grayson <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ISTM, that the argument the universe was NOT in thermo equilibrium >>>>>>>>> just before inflation is alleged to have begun, is extremely WEAK. >>>>>>>>> Thus, >>>>>>>>> it's illogical to claim that inflation "smooths out" the alleged NON >>>>>>>>> thermo >>>>>>>>> equiiibrium just before inflation begun. AG >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That is essentially what I said. Lawrence is just replacing one set >>>>>>>> of unknown initial conditions with another, equally unjustified, set. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bruce >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> In below & means δ. I forgot to replace them. >>>>>> >>>>>> LC >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The entropy is S = A/4ℓ_p^2 + quantum corrections, where these >>>>>>> corrections are ~ (&S/&h^a)k^a. Here h^a is tangent to the horizon and >>>>>>> k^a >>>>>>> is normal. This condition coincident on a null surface can appear on a >>>>>>> quantum extremal surface with null tangent g^s so that (&S/&h^a)k^a ≥ >>>>>>> (&S/&g^a)k^a by subadditivity. However, this surface occurs inside the >>>>>>> cosmological horizon. This means there is no equilibriium. Equilibrium >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> only approximated by stretching the horizon out to enormous distance >>>>>>> after >>>>>>> the spatial surface has inflated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is the case that inflation does not tell us the whole story prior >>>>>>> to inflation. So one can say there are equally unknown initial >>>>>>> conditions. >>>>>>> However, the details of those are less important as the spatial >>>>>>> manifold is >>>>>>> stretched out. That means inflation does provide at least a working >>>>>>> system. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LC >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Assuming the universe was incredibly tiny prior to inflation, and was >>>>> therefore causally connected, isn't it reasonable to assume that it had >>>>> reached thermo equilibrium *prior* to the onset of inflation? AG >>>>> >>>> >>>> Thermal equilibrium is not possible with quantum fields in curved >>>> spacetiome, nor is is likely in quantum gravity. The reason is not too >>>> hard >>>> to see. Suppose you have a black hole in a thermal background with the >>>> same >>>> temperature as its horizon T ~ 1/8M. The black hole has an equiprobability >>>> of absorbing or emitting a photon with energy δM The temperature then >>>> adjusts as T - δT ~ 1/8(M + δM) or T + δT ~ 1/8(M - δM) and is shifted >>>> away >>>> from thermal equality. This will then enhance the probability the black >>>> hole either then grows by absorbing more photons or by emitting them. >>>> There >>>> is no thermal equilibrium. Quantum gravitation is likely the same, for the >>>> effective specific heat of event horizons is negative. What I wrote above >>>> is in effect a more general form of this. >>>> >>>> Now a gemish of particles or a gas can be in thermal equilibrium in >>>> spacetime. >>>> >>> >>> *Doesn't this characterize the universe before inflation began? If not, >>> then what? AG* >>> >> >> No, the large plasma of particles was generated in the post inflationary >> period with reheating or the collapse of the vacuum or inflaton. >> >> LC >> > > If not a plasma of particles before inflation, then what was it -- a soup > of photons, or what? Also, although I really don't know much about BH's, > your analysis above depends on a boundary between the BH and what's beyond > it. In the pre-inflation universe there was no internal boundary within the > universe, so I don't see the relevance of the BH analogy. AG >
I will write it one more time. Particles and radiation emerged in the observable universe, or this pocket world, with the collapse of the vacuum energy or inflaton by the mass-gap. The drop in vacuum energy produced the matter and radiation around us. LC > >> >>> >>> >>>> That was what was set up with inflation. The whole process of the early >>>> expanding universe is about there being episodes of approximate thermal >>>> equilibrium of particles, such as during the quark-gluon plasma phase, >>>> electroweak period, the QED equilibrium of electrons and photon or the >>>> plasma phase that ended by producing the CMB. >>>> >>>> To think about physics one has to do a sort of Buddhist middle way. It >>>> is not good to either be too liberal or given to extreme speculations, but >>>> it is also not good to be overly conservative. >>>> >>>> LC >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/6ff6f6fc-ddfe-4e74-abed-f30a90c6124c%40googlegroups.com.
