On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 2:37:28 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > Sure the Casimir effect involves QED. The virtual photons are in a sense a > set of gauge redundancies that can be removed, though one need the moduli > from these redundancies. This still defines a form of quantum topological > number. > > LC >
You refer to QED, but aren't wan der Waal forces non quantum? AG > > On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 11:30:51 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 9:11:46 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>> >>> The only thing that is measured is a difference in energy, and the modes >>> between two parallel plates are different from those outside. So the >>> difference in energy results in this slight pressure. >>> >>> LC >>> >> >> From Wiki, below. Apparently there's an interpretation of the Casimir >> effect which doesn't depend on vacuum energy, which, as I recall, is >> Bruce's position on this issue. If no vacuum energy, then the claim that >> photons and other elementary particles arose from the vacuum in the very >> early universe is on dubious grounds. AG >> >> Relativistic van der Waals force[edit >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Casimir_effect&action=edit§ion=5> >> ] >> >> Alternatively, a 2005 paper by Robert Jaffe >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jaffe> of MIT states that "Casimir >> effects can be formulated and Casimir forces can be computed without >> reference to zero-point energies. They are relativistic, quantum forces >> between charges and currents. The Casimir force (per unit area) between >> parallel plates vanishes as alpha, the fine structure constant, goes to >> zero, and the standard result, which appears to be independent of alpha, >> corresponds to the alpha approaching infinity limit," and that "The Casimir >> force is simply the (relativistic, retarded >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retarded_potential>) van der Waals force >> between the metal plates."[17] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect#cite_note-17> Casimir and >> Polder's original paper used this method to derive the Casimir-Polder >> force. In 1978, Schwinger, DeRadd, and Milton published a similar >> derivation for the Casimir Effect between two parallel plates.[18] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect#cite_note-18> In fact, the >> description in terms of van der Waals forces is the only correct >> description from the fundamental microscopic perspective,[19] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect#cite_note-19>[20] >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect#cite_note-20> while other >> descriptions of Casimir force are merely effective macroscopic descriptions. >> >>> >>> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 10:40:45 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >>>> Does the Casimir effect establish that the vacuum has intrinsic energy, >>>> and if so, what is its form? TIA, AG >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b552434b-7743-4724-8831-0b7212042c38%40googlegroups.com.
