On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:51:09 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:27:51 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:59:14 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:46 AM Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > *Haven't you heard? Energy has mass equivalence, so one can ask how >>>> the energy/mass "vanished". AG* >>>> >>> >>> And the answer you imbecile is that on the cosmological scale >>> energy/mass is *NOT* conserved, so just like everything else that is >>> *NOT* conserved just vanishing is just fine. And if you don't like that >>> answer it's because the question "where does something that is not >>> conserved go?" is as dumb as dogshit. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >> >> One way of thinking about it is that quantum field theory is based on the >> idea that quantum fields can be localized down to a point, and in principle >> to every point on a spatial manifold. Quantum gravitation on the other hand >> with the holographic principle and the Planck scale requires a Hilbert >> space that is finite, or at least the states relevant to physics are a >> finite number. However, if you think about it the if QFT is restricted to a >> finite gridding it means there is some fundamental length to special >> relativity, but that transforms by based Lorentz group transformations. So >> if those lengths are fundamental then Lorentz symmetry is violated on a >> small scale. That creates a whole lot of trouble. However, there is maybe a >> way out of this. There are vacuum modes in a transPlanckian domain that are >> not entangled with anything. These are though stretched to larger >> wavelengths by the expansion of the universe, where upon they become >> entangled. This would be one way that vacuum energy remains constant though >> the universe keeps expanding to generate more spatial volume. Then in >> effect by pulling transPlanckian modes out of the doldrums of being >> maximally mixed states into the subPlanckian domain where they become >> entangled with the rest of the vacuum. By this vacuum energy is continually >> being pumped into the universe. These modes as transPlanckian modes are >> not interacting with anything, so they contribute nothing, once out of this >> doldrum they contribute vacuum energy. >> >> We, the frogish hapless local observers we are, may never know whether >> energy is really being created. If the universe is a spatially finite >> sphere the spherical curvature may be far larger than the square of the >> horizon length. We may never know it if is a sphere or it if is a flat >> spacetime or maybe even an octahedron in a hyperbolic tessellation. As >> local observers we may never be able to observe a violation of mass-energy >> conservation, even if the universe is a spatial sphere and there is indeed >> a violation of energy conservation by the generation of ever more vacuum. >> >> LC >> > > In your opinion is it plausible that the cosmological red-shift is an > illusion in the sense that no energy is actually being lost. We speak of > expanding space "stretching" photons, but that's never been observed. It's > just a convenient story, perhaps without substance. Maybe the reddening is > just the result of the relative velocities of distant galaxies wrt the > Earth, no different than a train which is approaching and receding an > observer, changes the incoming observed frequency of the train's horn. AG >
Another possibility is that the cosmological red-shift represents a real loss of energy, but is compensated for by the energy gain of vacuum energy from the added (expanded) space. In this case total energy might be conserved, but still doesn't explain where the lost red-shift energy went. AG > >> >> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/0723a63c-3198-4a63-979a-e47d89685b09%40googlegroups.com.
