On 6/5/2020 2:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 4 Jun 2020, at 20:35, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 6/4/2020 4:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 3 Jun 2020, at 21:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 6/3/2020 3:26 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 6/2/2020 2:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> On 1 Jun 2020, at 22:43, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/1/2020 2:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> Brent suggest that we might recover completeness by
restricting N to a finite domain. That is correct, because all
finite function are computable, but then, we have
incompleteness directly with respect to the computable
functions, even limited on finite but arbitrary domain. In
fact, that moves makes the computer simply vanishing, and it
makes Mechanism not even definable or expressible.
>> That's going to come as a big shock to IBM stockholders.
>
> Why? On the contrary. IBM bets on universal machine
No, they bet only on finite machines, and they will be very
surprised to
hear that they have vanished.
Brent
For the most part computers are meant to run various algorithms
that solve some restricted set of problems, say business
applications. We use them largely as tools.
Mathematics is largely a tool. My pure mathematics friends over on
math-fun seem to have most of their fun on Mathematica.
Of course, this is close to Aristotelian theology. It assumes that
there is something which is not mathematical in some reality. A
platonism or a pythegaorean think that he physical universe is but a
tool, invented by the numbers to figure out what happens, and what
is real.
But once you grasp that all computations exists in arithmetic (or
more exactly, that they are enabled by the arithmetical true
relations), even without Mechanism, the charge are reversed. It is
those who claim (in metaphysics, not in physics) that there is a
primitive universe who have the task to provide evidence.
You have implicitly asserted that computation=reality. With not
proof, or even evidence.
?
The UDA *proves* that the fundamental reality = arithmetic.
All proofs are relative to their premises. You just assume arithmetic
is real.
Brent
And AUDA (arithmetical Dovetailer Argument) makes the proof
constructive, and it makes Mechanism testable, and the evidences for
mechanism are striking, at a place where we know since 1500 years that
Materialism is already refuted. Oh, yes, that is well hidden since
1500 years, by all gnostic (atheist or non atheists).
You are the one who seems to claim the existence of an ontological
physical universe, where there is no proof nor any evidence.
When I kick it, it kicks back.
Evidences for a physical reality is not evidences for an ontological
or primitive physical reality.
Nobody said it was. But it is evidence for physical reality. The
thirst for an absolute primitive is a sickness of philosophy.
Brent
The confusion between both of those is know as Aristotle theology. The
belief in primary matter or physicalism (mathematicalist or not).
Bruno
Brent
I have given the way to test this, and, thanks to QM, we can say
that there are not yet any evidence found for a primitive physical
universe. On the contrary, nature seems to obey exactly to what is
needed for mechanism to be true.
Then, if we assume furthermore Mechanism, there is no more choice in
this matter. Physics cannot be the fundamental science, it reduces
to arithmetic (or any model of any Turing equivalent machinery)
“seen-from inside”.
Bruno
Brent
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