> On 5 Jun 2020, at 21:13, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 6/5/2020 2:39 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 4 Jun 2020, at 20:35, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/4/2020 4:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 3 Jun 2020, at 21:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>>>> <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 6/3/2020 3:26 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>>>>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/2/2020 2:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>>> >> On 1 Jun 2020, at 22:43, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>>>>> >> <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On 6/1/2020 2:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>>> >>> Brent suggest that we might recover completeness by restricting N to >>>>>> >>> a finite domain. That is correct, because all finite function are >>>>>> >>> computable, but then, we have incompleteness directly with respect >>>>>> >>> to the computable functions, even limited on finite but arbitrary >>>>>> >>> domain. In fact, that moves makes the computer simply vanishing, and >>>>>> >>> it makes Mechanism not even definable or expressible. >>>>>> >> That's going to come as a big shock to IBM stockholders. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Why? On the contrary. IBM bets on universal machine >>>>>> >>>>>> No, they bet only on finite machines, and they will be very surprised to >>>>>> hear that they have vanished. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>>> For the most part computers are meant to run various algorithms that >>>>>> solve some restricted set of problems, say business applications. We use >>>>>> them largely as tools. >>>>> >>>>> Mathematics is largely a tool. My pure mathematics friends over on >>>>> math-fun seem to have most of their fun on Mathematica. >>>> >>>> Of course, this is close to Aristotelian theology. It assumes that there >>>> is something which is not mathematical in some reality. A platonism or a >>>> pythegaorean think that he physical universe is but a tool, invented by >>>> the numbers to figure out what happens, and what is real. >>>> >>>> But once you grasp that all computations exists in arithmetic (or more >>>> exactly, that they are enabled by the arithmetical true relations), even >>>> without Mechanism, the charge are reversed. It is those who claim (in >>>> metaphysics, not in physics) that there is a primitive universe who have >>>> the task to provide evidence. >>> >>> You have implicitly asserted that computation=reality. With not proof, or >>> even evidence. >> >> ? >> >> The UDA *proves* that the fundamental reality = arithmetic. > > All proofs are relative to their premises. You just assume arithmetic is > real.
To assume arithmetic is real is ambiguous, if not non sensical. All we have to assume is that a number added to 0 gives that number, that 0 is not a successor, etc. We have just to believe that 817 is prime or not prime, or that (x + 4 = 9) admits a solution, or not. I have never met a physicist who does not believe in those truth. Now, given that all computations are run in arithmetic, a believer in Matter is invited to provide evidences, but as Plato understood already, there are no evidences at all. Not one. All the evidences we have today points on the immaterial consequence of Digital mechanism, from molecular biology to QM without collapse. Bruno > > Brent > >> And AUDA (arithmetical Dovetailer Argument) makes the proof constructive, >> and it makes Mechanism testable, and the evidences for mechanism are >> striking, at a place where we know since 1500 years that Materialism is >> already refuted. Oh, yes, that is well hidden since 1500 years, by all >> gnostic (atheist or non atheists). >> >> You are the one who seems to claim the existence of an ontological physical >> universe, where there is no proof nor any evidence. > > When I kick it, it kicks back. > >> Evidences for a physical reality is not evidences for an ontological or >> primitive physical reality. > > Nobody said it was. But it is evidence for physical reality. The thirst for > an absolute primitive is a sickness of philosophy. > > Brent > >> The confusion between both of those is know as Aristotle theology. The >> belief in primary matter or physicalism (mathematicalist or not). > > > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Brent >>> >>>> I have given the way to test this, and, thanks to QM, we can say that >>>> there are not yet any evidence found for a primitive physical universe. On >>>> the contrary, nature seems to obey exactly to what is needed for mechanism >>>> to be true. >>>> >>>> Then, if we assume furthermore Mechanism, there is no more choice in this >>>> matter. Physics cannot be the fundamental science, it reduces to >>>> arithmetic (or any model of any Turing equivalent machinery) “seen-from >>>> inside”. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/55f184ef-663c-1acb-af92-a9db0346c4c1%40verizon.net >>>>> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/55f184ef-663c-1acb-af92-a9db0346c4c1%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/22C3F6D1-890C-413B-A316-3E197100196F%40ulb.ac.be >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/22C3F6D1-890C-413B-A316-3E197100196F%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/786a7e9c-118d-d516-b3a6-b16238486255%40verizon.net >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/786a7e9c-118d-d516-b3a6-b16238486255%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8E2846BA-05C5-4066-B768-815DB0A446B8%40ulb.ac.be >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8E2846BA-05C5-4066-B768-815DB0A446B8%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/811521da-af37-5f5f-2f7b-90a30109d8b5%40verizon.net > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/811521da-af37-5f5f-2f7b-90a30109d8b5%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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