Re: The physical limits of computation

```
On 1/21/2024 5:40 PM, John Clark wrote:
```
On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 7:03 PM Brent Meeker <meekerbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
```
```
```        >>> /If I write "tamaontietoa" is it information or gibberish?

>> There's no reason it couldn't be both, Shannon would say it's
definitely information,
```
```    />No he wouldn't./

```
Of course Shannon would say  "tamaontietoa" contains information, and he can even tell you how much. There are 26 letters in the alphabet so 5 bits, 2^5, is more than enough to specify a letter, there are 12 letters in your example so"tamaontietoa" contains 60 bits of information.
No.  Since 5 bits is /more than enough/, you've only show that it contains /less than 60 bits/.
```
```
Personally I don't think the information that tamaontietoacontains is very interesting but that's just me, Shannon makes no value judgments.
```
```
You have apparently never read Shannon.  His measure of information is/relative to a channel /and depends on the counterfactual number of messages that could be sent.  You're presuming that each letter could have been one of 25 other letters.  But there are only seven different letters in "tamaontietoa" so maybe only 3 bits are needed for each one.  And maybe in this language "m" is always preceded and followed by "a" so there are only 10 symbols in the message instead of 12.  And so on.  You surely know that English is about 50% redundant; an estimate that Shannon himself made.  So it turns out you have to know the channel to calculate the information.
```
Incidentally "tama on tietoa" is Finnish for "this is information".

Brent
```
```
> /Shannon information is relative to the possible messages. /

```
Yes, and there are 26^12  possible 12 letter strings, and tamaontietoais one of them.
```
```
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
```21e

```
```
```
```--
```
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv1TNS3-cA5a%3DLtK6ofeRX3CBVATzvnRAvZRMJ2J_FH8Nw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv1TNS3-cA5a%3DLtK6ofeRX3CBVATzvnRAvZRMJ2J_FH8Nw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
```
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email