On 1/21/2024 5:40 PM, John Clark wrote:

On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 7:03 PM Brent Meeker <meekerbr...@gmail.com>wrote:>>> /If I write "tamaontietoa" is it information or gibberish? Is it about something? / >> There's no reason it couldn't be both, Shannon would say it's definitely information,/>No he wouldn't./Of course Shannon would say "tamaontietoa" contains information, andhe can even tell you how much. There are 26 letters in the alphabet so5 bits, 2^5, is more than enough to specify a letter, there are 12letters in your example so"tamaontietoa" contains 60 bits of information.

`No. Since 5 bits is /more than enough/, you've only show that it`

`contains /less than 60 bits/.`

Personally I don't think the information that tamaontietoacontains isvery interesting but that's just me, Shannon makes no value judgments.

`You have apparently never read Shannon. His measure of information`

`is/relative to a channel /and depends on the counterfactual number of`

`messages that could be sent. You're presuming that each letter could`

`have been one of 25 other letters. But there are only seven different`

`letters in "tamaontietoa" so maybe only 3 bits are needed for each one.`

`And maybe in this language "m" is always preceded and followed by "a" so`

`there are only 10 symbols in the message instead of 12. And so on. You`

`surely know that English is about 50% redundant; an estimate that`

`Shannon himself made. So it turns out you have to know the channel to`

`calculate the information.`

Incidentally "tama on tietoa" is Finnish for "this is information". Brent

> /Shannon information is relative to the possible messages. /Yes, and there are 26^12 possible 12 letter strings, andtamaontietoais one of them.John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>21e--You received this message because you are subscribed to the GoogleGroups "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sendan email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv1TNS3-cA5a%3DLtK6ofeRX3CBVATzvnRAvZRMJ2J_FH8Nw%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv1TNS3-cA5a%3DLtK6ofeRX3CBVATzvnRAvZRMJ2J_FH8Nw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

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