> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 1:30 PM
> To: Exchange Discussions
> Subject: RE: Shortcuts to Outlook objects
>
>
> I'm not sure how this refutes anything along these lines.
>
> Going to a trade show and picking up a freebie is one thing.
> Accepting a
> title and accepting continued compensation is quite another.
> There is no
> relationship implied with the first, there is with the second.
So where is the line drawn? You had said
>> Any form of compensation is a conflict of interest.
But squeezie pigs are unquestionably a form of compensation. So are free
lunches from vendors, or free drinks at MEC, or the title of MVP. Are some
squeezie pigs more equal than others?
>
> There are very specific things that denote a profession. One
> is having an
> independent governing body that defines and enforces the "rules" and
> ethics of the profession. The IT industry is a horrible
> failure in this
> regard.
I've always thought that the W3C did a good job of that, but please note
that I have not yet accepted your proposition that there is an "IT
industry," at least insofar as you seem to mean it. I work in the finance
industry right now and I am beholden to follow the rules and regulations of
the NCUA. I was in the insurance industry for a while and the medical
industry before then.
Mayhap the IT vendors need to get together and form a governing professional
body, but in my case at least the rules and regulations of my employers have
been sufficient to keep me on the straight and narrow.
> And, if you want to get specific, the only real
> professions that
> meet all of the definitions are military, medical, lawyers
> and to a lesser
> degree accounting and engineering. If you want to get technical, the
> military is the only profession that truly meets all of the
> requirements.
Oh, well that's all right then. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, and engineers
aren't professionals.
> In terms of their management of individuals in their
> profession, they are
> answerable to no one, have their own legal and ethical code
> of conduct and
> enforce those rules. This is why there is the justice system and the
> military's justice system.
I always thought it was because they had nuclear weapons.
>
> We work with lawyers all the time. We even host partner
> companies on our
> Exchange server for free. The lawyers that we work with FORCE
> us to bill
> them because they cannot ethically accept this service for free.
So, here is a gift that they cannot accept. Does that mean that they cannot
accept any gifts? That specific case doesn't expand to a general rule.
Anyway, they're not a real profession. Just the people with depleted uranium
are.
> It
> creates a conflict of interest for them. Our IT partners have no such
> ethical constraints.
>
You are confusing ethics with rules of professional conduct here. Whether
they have ethical restraints is moot.
> Go talk to lawyers, doctors and architects. Talk to them about their
> governing bodies, their ethics, etc. Talk to them about
> vendors in their
> industry. Getting things for free is viewed as bribery and a
> conflict of
> interest.
Once again, here is the point that you seem to be missing.
SOME gifts are seen as conflicts of interest. Others are not. Should we look
at the American Bar Association's /Lawyers' Manual on Professional Conduct/?
Section 51 deals with gifts in great detail, setting out guidelines for
which might be acceptable and which might not.
> Getting things for free is viewed as bribery
Yet another absolute statement, that is absolutely wrong. Here's a word that
will help you fix it:
some
> Some of these industries are more lax than others.
> Look at the
> medical industry and how drug reps are viewed treated. Then
> compare that
> with IT's views on vendors. The difference is stark. In one, drug reps
> giving away free samples is seen as a huge problem, in IT it is not.
>
The AMA, the governing body of the medical profession, says:
Any gifts accepted by physicians individually should primarily entail a
benefit to patients and should not be of substantial value.
(http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/4001-4236.html)
The AMA suggests in its guidelines that drug samples should be given to
patients first, family second, but it certainly does not say that
> giving away free samples is seen as a huge problem
So let's review:
In some fields, receiving gifts that are of certain types or are above
certain values from vendors is not permitted. This includes the field in
which I am employed (Credit Unions) and the one in which certain MVPs are
employed (Cheesebucketing).
This is not the same as
> And, accepting any form of
> compensation is a fundamental conflict of interest.
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:55 PM
> > > To: Exchange Discussions
> > > Subject: RE: Shortcuts to Outlook objects
> > >
> > >
> > > You're missing the point Ed. Any form of compensation is
> a conflict of
> > > interest. Period.
> >
> > Nice absolute statement there, but this isn't an absolute
> subject. I've had
> > a pink squeezie pig with a Motorola logo on my monitor for
> six years now.
> > Sometimes I bounce it against the wall to help me think.
> But no-one accuses
> > me of being a Motorola apologist, and I've bought a sum
> total of $0 worth of
> > Motorola kit in that time.
> >
> > As for that making us "tradespeople" and not
> "professionals," have a look
> > around your doctor's office next time you go there.
> >
> > > The discussion is not being advanced in any regard. The view
> > > that I have
> > > is that the IT industry's focus on vendors and tools will
> keep the IT
> > > industry from becoming a profession.
> >
> > What on earth is that supposed to mean? Is there a ISO9001
> definition of
> > "profession" that "the IT industry" has failed to apply
> for? Some people who
> > work in the IT field can indeed be seen as tradespeople, others as
> > professionals - the guy who assembles PCs on the line
> versus Michael Dell,
> > for example. But if you try to tell a CTO with an MBA that
> he's not in a
> > "profession" s/he will most likely still be laughing by the time the
> > security people have carried you out of the bulding.
> >
> >
> > > And, accepting any form of
> > > compensation is a fundamental conflict of interest.
> >
> > Sure it is. That's why Congresspeople, doctors, lawyers, or
> architects
> > aren't allowed to do it. Oops, they all are, aren't they?
> Just usually there
> > is a limit on it.
> >
> >
> > > In all of
> > > the posts,
> > > nothing refutes theses points.
> >
> > I hope I've rectified that.
>
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