I agree fully with what you write below. However that is not the perspective I want to bring forth here. It is useful to look at complex issues from many perspectives. If we can hold simultaneously many perspectives, we get closer to the truth.
Irmeli --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela Mailander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It seems you admit two points: > 1) an Islamic baby adopted by you would have the same > education you have. > 2) Islam is not necessarily what you see today since > it was quite capable of producing well educated people > some time ago. It can still do this and it does do > this still today for certain people--not the ones you > see around you, quite apparently. > > That is the sum total of my argument. Education is > the key. And education is planned--you don't have to > be a conspiracy theorist to come to that conclusion. > I've spent my entire adult life in a university > context. What gets taught in kindergarten is not > determined by the kindergarten teacher but by graduate > school professors who are paid by someone and whose > work and research are funded by someone. > > > > --- Irmeli Mattsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela > > Mailander > > <mailander111@> wrote: > > > > > > The Bible contains statements that women are to be > > > obedient to their fathers and husbands, yet we > > manage > > > to transcend thatthough probably only because the > > > powers that be want to collect taxes from two > > incomes > > > instead of just one and they want the children > > earlier > > > than they would get them if mothers stayed at > > home. > > > Even so we can, for example, try to understand > > what > > > "obedience" really is. The word comes from a > > Latin > > > root meaning "to listen to" and, deeper, from "to > > > hear." So, in the original sense, "obedience" > > isn't > > > the mindless thing it has to be in a military > > context. > > > I am sure that Hatice didn't ask the Prophet, > > "How > > > high, my Love," whenever he said, "Jump." She was > > his > > > teacher, so she would have listened not to what > > his > > > mouth was saying but to what his soul's need was > > and > > > respond to that. > > > > I like the etymology of the word "obedience" as you > > describe it. > > I however am afraid that being able to live it in > > that context lies > > more in our future than in the past as it requires > > rather advanced > > interpersonal skills. A person who is at mythical > > fundamentalist level > > cannot have those skills, because this stage is > > about control and > > following. Individuals on their own right don't > > exist yet in that > > world view. > > The Sharia law in Islam accepts beating of wifes as > > long as you don't > > inflict permanent physical injury. In that worldview > > the notion of > > psychic trauma caused by beating, doesn't apparently > > even exist yet. > > When there is also stated the idea that women are > > clearly lower in > > their moral development that men, it makes me doubt > > that this kind > > vicious circle that keeps people stuck in violence, > > can be broken even > > by the best kind of obedience. > > > > > > Islam has been made into a religion of fear, but > > it > > > was not that and is not that in its essence. This > > is > > > a relatively modern interpretation, which suits > > the > > > rulers that be, just as fundamentalist American > > > Christianity is a religion of fear that very much > > > suits the rulers that be and who have made it into > > > what it is. Remember that Islam produced Harun > > > al-Rashid, one of the wisest rulers our world has > > > seen, and Islam, as you know, flourished under > > him. > > > Islam also produced great poets (Rumi, among them) > > and > > > great philosophers and mathematicians. > > > > > Islam was an advanced culture in medieval times > > compared with Europe. > > But it has been stuck, or regressing already for > > many centuries. > > Blaming dictators makes people helpless and > > powerless. > > > > > Maharishi did say that we get the rulers we > > deserve. > > > I take that with a very large grain of salt > > because I > > > do not "know" that this is true any more than you > > > probably do. You believe it, just as others > > believe > > > what their religion tells them. Maharishi also > > said > > > that mothers should stay at homeand you can see > > for > > > yourself what the status of women is in the TMO. > > Do > > > you believe him when it comes to the status of > > women? > > > > > I did quote MMY only because this is a forum where > > people have > > TM-background. MMY has never been my guru. However I > > do perceive > > myself that on a large scale people get the rulers > > they deserve. > > In democracies we elect them, and even dictators > > cannot stay in power > > without enough supporters. > > > > > Do we in fact get the rulers we deserve? In a > > way, no > > > doubt. In another way, who knows? How did > > Germany > > > "get" Hitler, for example? Well, for one thing, > > the > > > Catholic vote for him was mandated from the pulpit > > of > > > every Catholic Church in Germany, and his vice > > > chancellor, the power behind the throne, was a > > Papal > > > Chamberlain. Even so, Hitler had to avail himself > > of > > > the "back stairs" because he did not quite get the > > > popular vote. And who "created" him? That was > > the > > > Thule Society, which, in turn, was created for > > that > > > very purpose by international money interests. > > That > > > society, an ashram, really, created his party and > > his > > > political platform (including the necessary enemy, > > a > > > part Jews would play)all of which was designed > > > according to principles learned from Gustav le > > Bon. > > > The money that created Hitler came primarily from > > > American corporations. World War I, also created > > by > > > international money interests, had created the > > climate > > > of desperation in Germany that made the ground > > fertile > > > for Hitler. So, just what could Germans have done > > > about Hitler? Just about as much as Americans can > > do > > > about Bush. > > > > The German's had a weak spot that Hitler took > > advantage of. The > > German's have been able to learn from this mistake > > unlike many other > > nations. > > > > > > > > I understand what you are telling me about the > > people > > > from Islamic countries that are creating > > difficulties > > > in Western Europe. After all, I can understand > > why > > > Ron Paul thinks that if you're meeting a black > > person > > > you're likely to get robbed or killed. But the > > fact > > > is that black people are no different than people > > > anywhere. They are what they are because they > > have > > > largely been made into that. Islam is no > > different. > > > Ask yourself who at the top gets to decide how > > > religion is interpreted and taught and by whom in > > > Islamic countries? Ask yourself especially where > > the > > > money is coming from. > > > > I don't like conspiracy theories, or ideas that the > > greed of the > > westerners has made Muslim's, blacks etc. what they > > are nowadays. > > That does not mean that there has been no greed, no > > bad treatment of > > these people. There has been also a lot sincere > > effort to help, and > > still the end result has been a glaring failure. > > The worst thing is however that this kind of > > thinking makes people > > feel powerless or gives justification for their > > hostile actions. > > > > I see the violence in the outer world being mainly a > > reflection of > > what is going on inside homes. For children who > > continuously have to > > witness violence, abuse, apathetic submissiveness, > > blaming others at > > home, this kind behavior becomes the air they > > breath. > > These patterns have to be stopped at homes. Only > > then the external > > > === message truncated === > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >
