---Interesting theory, but the facts yell out re: MMY ...he has "I, I, I...written all over him. Still, he's Enlightened. (at least many believe. I believe he is). Take Adi Da (aka Franklin Jones). Haven't met him personally but have read all of his books, talked with his disciples, seen videos of him. No doubt, he's Enlightened. But WHAT an EGO.!!! Nope, saying that Enlightned people are "different" and they have their own rules definitely contradicts some very bizarre behavior on their part, in some cases including immoral and even criminal behavior. Standards have to apply to everyone. Saying there's nobody "there" doesn't hold water, since the body is there and "it" is doing the behavior. The question of Enlightenment only applies to identification, not the role of the body acting in the world. As long as there's a body, desires must be present. Relinquishing the notion of a mental "doer": (i.e. realizing the true nature of the Self and seeing the nature of Mind); doesn't change the fact that relative bodies are performing actions, exhibit desires, have programs, agendas; even selfish desires which do harm to people. I suppose you would say that it's impossible for an Enlightened person to harm another person? (or, are you one of those who maintain Enlightened people are incapable of making mistakes? It would be a mistake to believe that notion. Don't fall for it.
In [email protected], Peter Sutphen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > An unenlightened person looks at an enlightened person > and they appear to have desires. They talk, they move, > they eat food, they do this and that, they prefer one > thing over another. In fact from the behavioral level > there is no difference between the unenlightened and > the enlightened. But the enlightened person is not > "there" in the way the unenlightened person believes > themselves to be. There is no sense of "I" or "mine" > in the enlightened person. There is no subjective > "self" that sees itself as "me" or "I" . That just > goes in enlightenment. The best an enlightened person > can say is that they are "nothing." They aren't there > in they way an unenlightened person believes they are > there. There is no personal identity or self in > enlightenment. The mind can't understand this because > it confounds a sense of individual self with > consciousness. The two have no relationship what so > ever. A personal self is a product of consciousness > projecting into mind and experiencing itself as bound. > > > --- matrixmonitor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I don't see how Enlightenment is in any way > > connected with not having > > desires, from a theoretical level (MMY never said > > that); or > > experiential level...looking at various people whom > > I consider to be > > Enlightened; for example. > > 1. Various Buddhist teachers, and texts have people > > repeating the > > Bodhisattva vow, which entails Enlightened people > > using some type of > > subtle body to be used for the purpose of assisting > > others. For > > example, p. 118 of "The Seven Chapter Prayer of the > > Great Teacher > > Padmasambhava", p. 118, states part of the vow: > > "I vow that having attained the level of > > Buddhahood, I shall bring > > all beings to full Enlightenment, using whatever > > means are necessary > > for whomsoever is to be tamed". > > Therefore, this is definitely an avowed desire, > > requiring a body in > > the context of useful and skillful means toward an > > end. > > 2. The Dalai Lama definitely has desires: foremost > > on his is list is > > his stated desire to help the Tibetan people. > > 3. Terton Kansang Dechen Lingpa Rincoche, an > > Enlightened teacher from > > Tibet, has the desire to assist the monks and nuns > > of the > > Zangdokpalri monastery in Northeastern India. A > > pamphlet from his > > org states, "According to his visions of > > Padmasambava, Kunzang Dechen > > Rinpoche has established a nunnery and monastery in > > Arunachal > > Pradesh, one of the poorest though most beautiful > > areas in the > > world. The brochure is inviting people to donate > > money. This is > > definitely a worthy desire, don't you think? > > 4. Enlightened Kriya yoga Guru Sri Satyeswarananda > > Giri has desires. > > See: > > http://www.sanskritclassics.com/aboutbaba.html > > In 1982 after he initiated me into Kriya yoga, I > > asked him what his > > purpose was in coming to the U.S. He said it was to > > teach the "true" > > version of Kriya Yoga (he maintained that Yogananda > > was teaching it > > improperly); to set the record straight on the > > history of Kriya Yoga, > > and to teach the technique to worthy seekers. Those > > are all desires. > > 5. Enlightened teacher Kalu Rinpoche said, (through > > an interpreter) > > that he urged people to chant Om Mani Padme Hum. > > That's a desire. > > 6. Ramakrishna stated that he intended to incarnate > > again 200 years > > after his last incarnation. That's definitely a > > desire. > > 7. The next one...you may not agree that Jerry > > Jarvis is enlightened > > but I believe he is. He definitely has numerous > > desires. I worked > > with him at SIMS for several years, 1970 through > > 1973. For example, > > on one occasion I found a huge box of photos of > > people in some of the > > early courses...Idlewild, etc. I told Jerry about > > the box and he > > requested me to clean up the basement. That was a > > desire on his part. > > 8. Also, I believe Walter Koch was Enlightened. Once > > I was having a > > conversation with him and asked about the content of > > thought. He > > said "give up negative thinking". It was his desire > > to tell me that. > > 9. Take Ramana Maharshi. His brother was the > > "Shakti" to his "Shiva" > > role. Ramana asked his brother to be the manager of > > the ashram, who > > then carried out the work by doing it himself or > > dishing the work out > > to subordinates. It was Ramana's desire to have his > > Brother play > > that role. > > > > To conclude, I see no cause and effect relationship, > > correlation, or > > connection whatsoever between 1. Being Enlightened > > and 2.not having > > desires. On the contrary, MMY is Enlightened (I > > believe); and every > > day on this forum, dozens of times, people mention > > his desires. > > So, wherever the idea comes from regarding desires, > > it doesn't come > > from MMY or any of the Enlightened people I'm > > familiar with. > > Which Enlightened people say they have no desires? > > If they said it, > > it was their desire to say it!!! (so figure that one > > out). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Or go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Discover Yahoo! > Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! > http://discover.yahoo.com/ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
