On Apr 4, 2008, at 6:26 AM, sparaig wrote:
--- In [email protected], Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Apr 2, 2008, at 3:28 PM, sparaig wrote:
Well, the 2004 study and its sister study on the same subjects was
done on people
reporting 24 hour a day witnessing for at least one year.
Obviously, since they are already
IN what the reserachers considered CC, expecting them to "enter it
at will" is a strange
concept.
The key phrase here is "what the reserachers considered CC". The fact
is, if they were actually in turiyatita, since they'd be in samadhi
24/7/365 all they need to do is demonstrate:
--the ability to change states of consciousness at will
Yeah, the upanishads went into that in great detail as a requisite
for the state...
Exactly, that's why the Mandukya-karika in the Shank. trad. is so
important. You're not 'beyond the fourth' if you can't actually be
beyond waking,sleeping and dreaming. It's common sense.
--the ability to hear what is going on externally to the meditator,
while EEG shows it's in deep sleep.
In fact, why would this be the case?
Because "the fourth', turiya, is beyond waking, dreaming and sleeping
of course.
One of hte indicators of sleep is that the thalamus
shuts done connection to the outside world. Why would a condition
(samadhi) where the
brain reamins in a wakeful state while the thalamus shuts down
connection to both the
outside senses AND the inner sensory-feedback mechanism (thought)
lead to some
change in sleep where suddenly the thalamus is no longer doing what
it used to do?
etc.
What we have here is simple 'sleight of hand'. They redefine CC from
it's real yogic definition to what they think they can scrape up data
for, dumbing it down and redefining it. This is an extremely
deceitful and dishonest approach.
Perhaps it is dumbed down, but given it is what MMY said about the
subject for 50 years,
its hardly redefining it in the TM researchers' minds. You're
projecting a great deal here, I
think.
Unless you actually got some sort of independent corroboration from
the Shank. trad. itself or other yogis, you'd never know, would you?
The closest is a woman who learned TM about 50 years ago when she
was a kid (Helen
Olson I suspect) who showed breath suspension periods that in
total, lasted about 60
percent of a 10 minute meditation session, but they were only a
minute or so at a time.
Yes, those examples were from the Olson daughter I am told by a
friend of hers.
So you're aware of someone showing 60% of her time spent in the
meditation state and
you still say the above.
Yes. It's no big deal. As if often the case with Tm research, they're
trying to make it look like something it is not. Unless the metabolic
rate and heart rate really drops significantly, it's just an anomaly,
that's all. In fact, yogic tradition warns about unconscious pauses
in breathing in the untrained as dangerous.
Of course what they'd like you to think is that these people are
experiencing samadhi, but nothing could be further from the truth.
